Ogre Kingdoms vs. Tomb Kings

[Hragged]

Post advice on playing against Tomb Kings here.

Archived advice can be found by clicking here. Please note, the information within Archive topics may no longer be relevant due to the existence of newer army rules and Warhammer editions.


Tomb Kings Ogre by Lewis Clarke

[Rhinox Herder]

One of the most important things any army has to do is try to kill the characters vs TK. I always try to take out the necroteks first because they give the unit hatred. Then I start of the other characters. For OK, gorgers are great for killing any caskets your opponent has.

[The Ultra-Mega Bob]

A lot of Ogre units will generaly make mincmeat of TK units one on one - Mournfangs or Maneaters are some of the best examples of this. In a game I played the other day a charging unit of 4 Mournfangs killed 30 Skeletons with HW/S in one round without breaking a sweat (lost maybe one wound).

Sphinxs can pose a problem but Gnoblars & Leadbelchers are great answers to these (depending on which Sphinx it is one will be better than the other), as you can ping wounds off them at range before striking first in combat with the majority of your units (barring Ironguts or characters with GW, obviously).

I would say that with the exception of the Priests and Necrotechs you should ignore their characters completely (just before anyone says I'm being stupid I class the Heirophant is a priest); Tomb Kings and Princes are much tougher than Skellies and will usually have some kind of ward save, so just focus on gaining combat res through attacking their units and you'll quickly crumble them, though part of this is dependent on my next point:

Make sure you have magical dominance. If you let them get off too many Nehekharan spells they'll maybe have just enough people left in their units to hold you in place for a turn and swing the combat against you with a flank charge. Their units can't match you one on one, so make sure you have either a) all your units charging theirs at the same time, to avoid them having room to manouvre flank attacks, or b) make sure that you can dominate the magic phase, which will stop them regenerating guys; once you've done this they will have a much harder time keeping their units alive after the first round of combat (unless they use a character bunker).

[grey templar]

Single Sabretusks and Mournfangs work well together aganst Chariots. Although this works well with Sabretusks and any unit.

Sabretusks march within 1" of the enemy and angle themselves so as to redirect their opponent when they charge them. This will set up the enemy unit to either take a devestating flank charge from the Mournfangs(or other suitable unit of the ogre persuasion) or they are forced to walk around the Sabretusks which will be nearly impossable with the Sabretusk movement.

Sabretusks are also quite good at tying up Archers. I got a flank charge off and was there for a couple of rounds before the Tusk finally died because my opponent didn't want to present his squishy flank to the rest of my army.



Ironblasters are really good at popping Chariots, Screaming Cats, and the Casket. Screaming Cats in particular are high priority, that panic test at -1ld is not good for us. even when in general's range. The casket is a high priority target for obvious reasons, it just murders mournfangs like nothing.

[ArkkiError]

What tactics would you use against an army like this:

My friend has an tomb king army in progress that is more into fast moving and hard hitting units than core cannonfodders..so here is the list that I know he is going to use in it:

9x Chariots
16x cavalry
3 or 6x necropolis knights
1x necrosphinx
1x warsphinx
3 or more ushabti with great bows
tomb king
2x lich priest's
1x tomb scorpion
1x casket
1x the new coming bone giant thing that can be eguibbed with huge bow(or something like that.)

cant really fit all of those into one 2k battle, but still going to be afraid what he can and how to beat 'em. :/ fast and hit hard if you ask me. >_<

[pete6982]

Charge in quick and try to cause enough wounds on the rank and file to crumble the characters (undead never break if they lose combat, rather they wounds for each point you beat them by, rank and file first, then characters.)  I run my sabertusks down the flanks (keeping them 6" from other units) because redirecting isn't as necessary vs slow-moving armies.  I try to take out catapults/archer units/casters.  Gorgers are great against the hierophant because when he dies they start to crumble for every point they lose an Ld test by.  Try to line their units up to be able to charge through one (overrun) unit and hit another.  The impact hits count towards combat resolution, so this is important so that you charge them every turn.  You will pretty much dominate them in combat.  I always pack dispel scrolls and make sure I dispel everything the first few turns (unless they are moving closer, which helps me charge faster).  Most players won't risk a miscast at that stage and once the combat starts you'll have them over a barrel.

[CaptScott]

Tip:

Gorgers!  When they come on immediately charge their bowmen blocks.  While they won't destroy the unit, they'll keep it occupied for the rest of the game.

[Arghsquakmoo]

As a Tomb King Player, I can recommend a couple things.

We have access to lore of Death, which will pop enemy heroes, which have poor leadership, quite nicely. Their leadership is por-to-average, so The Maw and Purple Sun are quite nice.

The Necrosphinx, with heroic killing blow, is scary, but not the end of the world. First he must hit, then he must roll a 6 to wound (or 5 if he's got Cursed Blades on him). The chance of him actually killing something outright is far from often (but if he's smart, he'll roll that attack first so that he can try to pop an ogre, then cause woundswith his remaining 4 attacks. Otherwise, he'll put a couple wounds on then kill off a wounded ogre.). As mentioned before, our ironblasters are quite capeable of handling all his monster threats.

Try to ignore basic skeletons, if possible. While it may be satisfying to crunch through 20+ models on the charge, he's likely to have another 30+ to hold you in combat for a while. If there's a hero in the unit, that changes things, making the unit more viable as a target.

Ushabti are both powerful and pointless at the same time. Essentially unbreakeable ironguts with ws 4 and i3, they come in at a rather-pricy 50 points a pop. I use ushabti as "road bumps" instead of combat threats, shooting at foes with great bows, then when charged, try to kill as many as possible before crumbling. However, that price tag keeps their unit size low, especially when you add the fact that Kings or Princes can't join them, like they can with Tomb Guard. Whack them with Leadbelchers or a firebelly, and try to avoid combat, as they'll strike first, hit more, and wound on average as a bull (Unless they're using Great Weapons, at which point they're likely to be flankers or a mainline unit)

Tomb Guard just scream "Shoot with leadbelchers and scraplaunchers" and those are the best ways to deal with them. While their killing blow won't affect our fatties, Tomb King heroes do more to buff Tomb Guard than any other unit in the army, other than maybe chariots. You're probably better off trying to kill as many guard in melee, but expect to get slaped around if a King and Necrotect are present. Ramhotep is even worse, not only providing Hatred to his unit, but also Frenzy. This, plus a prince, turns Tomb Guard into Warriors of Chaos with light armor. A king makes it worse, turning them into chosen with light armor.

The most common magic items in Tomb King armies are as follows: Glittering Scales, Golden Death Mask of Kharnut, Earthing Rod, Dragonhelm, Dragonbane Gem, Ironcurse Icon, Armor of Silvered Steel, and any ward save talisman.

Dragonhelm and Dragonbane gem are pretty straightforward in their purpose. The Golden Death Mask of Kharnut is the one you need to watch out for, not only bestowing Terror to the wearer, but also nullifying the General's leadership and the BSB's Hold Your Ground! special rules within 6 inches. Ogre leadership is poor, but with the negation of the General's leadership and BSB's rerolls, fear tests will the nerve-wracking, while they don't take any. Don't expect to win in a combat in which you fail a fear heck, as they're likely to capitalize on it heavily.

[MaanNaam]

Big units of Lead Belchers with a firebelly in them.  Shoot anything that gets in your way (Monsters/Chariots/Cavalry) TK really don't enjoy running against lots of S4 shooting (with AP).  Keep your firebelly's breath weapon for when the Lead belchers get into CC.  If you can get the firebelly in b2b with a TK character then strike him (they are flammable).

Remember, in the end lead belchers are still as strong as normal ogres in close combat, so medium units should still do well against TK. (Or any T3 troops as a matter of fact)

[Far2Casual]

It's funny that nobody cares about this thread because we think (me included, up to a point) that it is one of our easiest matches, even though :

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=11609

"Ogres is probably our easiest matchup, which is nice considering the actual meta". Food for thought.

[dirtycrabcakes]

Tomb Kings is my easy button. I've never lost against them, but haven't come up against them in a tourney setting though (or played THAT many TK opponents). 

[Sazel]

It's funny that nobody cares about this thread because we think (me included, up to a point) that it is one of our easiest matches, even though :

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=11609

"Ogres is probably our easiest matchup, which is nice considering the actual meta". Food for thought.

Y'know, I read through that, and I think it's pretty funny, too. I've had no fears of facing a TK player (although I have yet to do so), and it looks as though they aren't worried about us.

I think the major key for them, though, is the magic step. If they get the Death lore, they can easily wreck us with it. Well, so can everybody else. Shut down their magic, and watch them crumble, just like others. I think a heavy shooting list would do the trick, with Heavensmasters and Leadies and IBlasters to boot! Decimate them before they can waddle over to us

However, it's nice to have a thread linking to the opposing armies' "Know Thy Enemy" section lol... If we know what they plan to take against us, we know what to expect and how to counter it.

[Shadowlord]

My second army is TK and if you know that you are going to face Ogres, you can tool up your game to beat them (dominating the magic phase will be a push in the right direction) better than a lot of other armies.

However, in an environment where you can't I do not see this as standard.

I personally never lost to a TK player but honest enough, it has been a long time since I last faced them.

[grey templar]

Yeah, they can have a fair amount of HKB in their army but its so situational that nobody builds for it.

[Phazael]

I like TK, both for the concept and fluff, but they have been repeatedly screwed by the timing of their book release.  They are forever doomed to be the underpowered alpha test of the next VC book.  They are to undead what beasts are to chaos, the underpowered underloved army that breaks the hearts of those who play it.

That being said, they do have a couple of really good things in the mix against Ogres.  The terror mask thing is brutal, if you let it be.  Screaming Skull Cats are a panic disaster waiting to happen.  The War Sphinxes can give you a really bad day if you failed to bring any IBlasters.  The stuff is there in the options that they commonly take to give us a rough game.  In practice, though, its just too hard for them to stack up against even a modestly sized MMU Ogre army, especially one with one or more Iron Blasters.  Their magic phase is just plain terrible, probably among the worst in the game.  They have the dice, just nothing worth casting unless they want to pay the mother of all butcher taxes.  I pretty much just toss dice at the casket and ignore anything else they are doing, even if they brought the Light guy.  Its really sad for an army so dependant on its magic phase to be this terrible at it.  Then you take out the Catapults, focus attacks on the terror mask guy, and faceroll your way to victory.

I will say that like Beastmen, anyone who is taking this army is often a very strong general who is challenging themselves, so don't go to sleep at the wheel against them.

[Gladisknight]

Their magic phase is just plain terrible, probably among the worst in the game.  They have the dice, just nothing worth casting unless they want to pay the mother of all butcher taxes.  I pretty much just toss dice at the casket and ignore anything else they are doing, even if they brought the Light guy. 

Hi there, new member here and this will be my first post on the forum. I am recently come to the Ogres and am a regular tomb king player myself. Although in the essence I agree with the post quoted, I would like to point out that if you are a tomb king player willing to pay the said "mother of all butcher taxes", the magic phase from tomb kings might just become a very nasty surprise, especially for ogres. I myself have charged 2 units of 4 simple chariots against 2 blocks of 9er Ogres/Ironguts, annihilating in one go the one unit completely without getting any wounds and wounding a second one beyond any help for maybe one or two chariots lost. Chariots are usually sacrificial units you send against weakened or weak targets and they may break the one or the other combat but usually get destroyed themselves.

"even if they brought the Light guy"... I would strongly advise against underestimating what Lore of Light does to a tomb king unit. Speed of Light and Birona's Timewarp are 2 very strong spells that enhance the tomb king's abilities perfectly, above all if they go heavy on snakes, chariots (and maybe tomb guard). Outside of usual tournament restrictions, tomb kings have no problem at all to get off a fairly good magic phase. (Tournament restrictions usually castrate their magic phase beyond help and to be fair, they may take another 100 pts or something like that  )

Lore of Death though is another very possible choice for Tomb Kings and I guess no Ogre wants to take his chances against the purple sun :-)

If anything, the spell from the casket is the least of your problems if you encounter an army with a L4 Nehek, L4 Lore of Light/Death Priest, a Hierotitan to enhance the casting and a casket to get more power dice and (to top it all the usually banned from tournaments Neferra's Scroll of Mighty Incantations).

I would prioritize my targets thus:
1st: target the Hierotitan if present, his constant support to the magic phase is worth his points in gold
2nd: any Lore of Light/Death priest, these guys are what makes their magic dangerous
3rd: the Hierophant: killing him usually seals the victory, but as he is not that much of a danger often enough (though sometimes...) you can usually ignore him unless a specially good occasion arises.
4th: the casket
5th: the 2nd casket (some play two of them and usually take only a priest to 6 dice the spell and hope for irresistible force)

[Phazael]

Personally, thats too much to pay for a magic phase.  Light is really good, but you are really only likely to roll one of the descent spells for TK, maybe two at most.  Bringing a pair of L4s also means no King and no DoE, which I personally fear a great deal more, especially when paired with the actual TK Lore.  Sure you can bring another L2 to assure getting the good spells in either Light or Death, but at that point you have sunk 700 points into the magic phase before these guys even take gear, leaving far less for boots on the ground, which you really need against Ogres (or anyone for that matter).  And then a L1 Kamakaze butcher with the hellheart will likely shut it all down on the key turn....

Love the army conceptually, they just got a really raw deal from GW.

My target priority list, from experience:
Casket- Easily dusted by Pistoleaters or an IBlaster.  With it gone, they lose both power dice and their best spell.  Plus, if they castled around it other units get blown up in the process.
War Sphinx- Aside from poison maneaters, you will struggle to kill these in close combat, so any wounds you can knock off are a major bonus.
Snake Riders-  These guys are probably the strongest unit in their book, point for point.  Don't underestimate them.
Catapults- Same deal as the Casket, but these cease to matter once you get into combat.  I consider these targets of oppurtunity.
Heirophant-  Unlikely it will happen against a good player, but sometimes a window opens for a solo character to charge this guy and take him out.  You should nearly always do this, if possible.  Even if the manuever fails, most TK players will pucker up to defend this guy to the point where he will conceed nearly the entire game to you trying to protect this guy.  If he skimped on defensive gear, its even possible for a solo Sabre to take out a TK wizard, given the right situation.
Chariots-  They hurt comming in, but after that they cave fairly fast.  The three packs are whats dangerous, because they generally are just there to provide some late game flank carnage, so these should be softened up ahead of time, if possible.

[T Bone]

Actually, TK wizards are remarkably cheap, 2 level 4s and a level 2 are going to set you back 515pts before equipment, which is entirely reasonable.

On top of that, I don't think the Lore of Nehekara is half as bad as you make it out to be, yes Skullstorm is poor, but all the other spells are quite good.

Cursed blades is situational, the situation being 'not fighting ogres or a Throgg army' a low casting value for killing blow, or better killing blow on TK and Necro Knights. Against any man-sized enemy (which are most) this can be devastating on a hoard of skeleton who can now direct 6-9 killing blow attacks on enemy characters.

Desication is superb, its essentially a backwards Wissans, a little harder to cast than wissans because you cast it before your own shooting phase, and as such can chose to desiccate the unit you are immediately planning to shoot, as well as its obvious use in combat. Admittedly the boost is far too high to cast.

Vengance is excellent against hoards you'd like not to charge you, with 2 effects for a fairly low casting value. Granted the range is a little short, but that just tempts people to charge and take the DTTs.

Protection, Desert Wind and Smiting all have their uses, all being spells that have effects that are rare in other magic lores. Tell someone you're opening your magic phase by giving an engaged hoard of skeletons a 5+ ward and they'll probably throw some dispel dice at it.

And dont forget the Lore attribute. Sure you cant load handfuls of models back onto the board like VC can, but many of the TKs most useful units are expensive multi-wound creatures like Necro Knights and Heirotitans, who can really benifit from D3+1 wounds bake if they've taken a couple. If ogres had a spell or lore attribute that could do that to mournfang we'd be laughing.

[God_of_the_Gnoblars]

I don't want to rag on TKs, but I have never even come close to losing to them.  Blow up their chariots with cannons and belchers, gorgers behind for caskets and catapults, our infantry stomp theirs, and any special things they have can be shot once you take out the chariots.  If you want, you can sniper/poison the heirophant(it doesn't always work and its pricy to focus on just this) and it will end the game quickly.  All in all, just play it smart, TKs are one army where you need to do 1 of 2 things, be cautious and sit back while taking them down to managable bits with shooting, or attack with a reckless abandon and kill the heirophant any way possible.  If you get the heirophant, its over.