Author Topic: Ogre Kingdoms vs. Skaven (Read 19409 times)

Adasi · « **Reply #25 on:** Jan 09, 2012, 08:54:22 AM »

...he has a Grey Seer in a 1k game - ?? if so, call him a cheesey slimeball, pack up then go find anothe rplayer!

Ardecay · « **Reply #26 on:** Jan 10, 2012, 12:48:56 PM »

calling a Skaven player Cheesey is probably not going to have the impact you expect...

than again i can imagine a few OK 1K lists that would easily make short work of any skaven list.

Draaka · « **Reply #27 on:** Jan 10, 2012, 06:38:36 PM »

I have a friend who has started running a unit of about 30 stormvermin with queek headtaker and the assassin character, whats the best way to deal with this, it decemated my vampire counts, I would like some advice before I have to face it with my ogres.

Johnny-Crass · « **Reply #28 on:** Jan 10, 2012, 07:44:30 PM »

That is one of the worst skaven builds I have ever heard about. You just take it on without characters as both of those guys trash most folks in a challenge. Mournfang would be ideal for it

grey templar · « **Reply #29 on:** Jan 13, 2012, 06:19:32 PM »

If skaven are running alot of Engineers and a Plague Priest/Grey Seer the Hellheart will be good.

You only need to get a couple of the Engineers to shut down the magic phase and since their characters need to be in close you should easily get most of them.

Mournfangs are good against slaves, but you will need to neutralize their shooting before you stick the mournfangs into the slaves or ensure there are better targets. Ironblasters should take out WLCs and any nasty weapon teams ASAP.

Koroviev · « **Reply #30 on:** Jan 14, 2012, 11:28:40 PM »

A seer in 1k against ogre kingdoms really isn't that great. It's not like he can dread 13th his way to a win and the seer can't take any equipment. If I have a choice, I'd probably rather have a level 2 caster in 1000 as Skaven for a fight with Ogres. The seer with his bunker is going to be about 40% of 1000. Not sure what you're playing with, but a skitterleapt Grey Seer is fresh meat for leadbelchers. And no general means an auto-loss for most Skaven. Even if his seer survives after the leap, you can probably break some units that he's left behind, especially slaves.

Also, that Queek unit, I just wouldn't fight it head on with anything important to me until it's been whittled down (of course, a Mournfang charge will do a lot of damage to it, but if he still has 10+ models left after that with frenzy up, you're in for some pain). Everything in it will normally go first in combat with Ogres, and death frenzied Strength 5 attacks will cut through any rank and file. You usually want to block the death frenzy and burn his model count down as much as possible before it gets near you. You also have the option to let death frenzy go off if you think you can play keep away from him with redirectors (and then death frenzy would be doing some work for you).

The unit costs him around 800 points if he always throws the assassin into it and takes a magic banner. The major flaw of it is that it's such an easy target for its cost. Queek's stormvermin still have mediocre toughness and their armor (4 or 5, dependent on if he splurged for shields which are only useful against ranged for that unit) won't really save them from high Strength damage. You need to slow him down while the storm banner he probably took is still up. Leadbelchers brutalize these guys once the banner's down and scraplaunchers will also be useful if you field them.

Multi-hit direct damage magic (spells in Fire, Beasts, and Heavens) will also make quick work of this unit regardless of the storm banner and keep in mind that Queek's saves are really poor and can't be adjusted by the other player (snipers/death magic apply here).

Fulminating flame cage is probably what I'd choose as "most valuable spell" since it'll shut down the unit's movement completely (or if he moves, he'll lose half his models) wasting a precious round of storm banner protection or forcing him to stay in place while you deplete the unit.

Draaka · « **Reply #31 on:** Jan 16, 2012, 02:12:29 PM »

Thanks for the advice ^_^

Slaaneshy sinner · « **Reply #32 on:** Feb 09, 2012, 05:16:39 PM »

It is really easy to cause huge amounts of damage to skaven units with Ironblasters as the unit footprints are so big just put your shot 8" infront of the unit and you will hit lots of rnf. Also shoot at screaming bells if you hit the bell there is a good chance of damaging/destroying it and a 1/6 chance of sniping the Grey seer (i just did it today on turn 2 pretty much won me the game).

Johnny-Crass · « **Reply #33 on:** Feb 10, 2012, 10:48:08 PM »

Considering shoot a cannonball at a greyseer has a 1/3rd chance of not hitting the bell at all (The way the skaven book is writen it overrides the cannon hits both rule) and he has a 4+ ward and you will still ring the bell.

Also do not waste cannon shots at 2 point slaves. Wohoo you killed 10 slaves!...

Far2Casual · « **Reply #34 on:** Feb 11, 2012, 08:32:35 AM »

Quote from: Johnny-Crass on Feb 10, 2012, 10:48:08 PM

(The way the skaven book is writen it overrides the cannon hits both rule)

It has never overriden anything and it will never do so.

Quote

Q: If a template hits a Screaming Bell or Plague Furnace being
ridden by a character, how is this resolved? (p42 & p48)
A: It is resolved as per the template rules in the Shooting at
Ridden Monsters section on page 105 in the Warhammer
rulebook.
For example: a Rock Lobber hits A Screaming Bell ridden by
a Grey Seer. The central hole is over the base. As such a D6 is
rolled to determine who takes the Strength 9 hit. A 4 is rolled
and so the Screaming Bell takes the Strength 9 hit while the
Grey Seer takes the Strength 3 hit.

Johnny-Crass · « **Reply #35 on:** Feb 11, 2012, 04:20:37 PM »

The way it is writen it does negate the cannon shot but I guess GW saw it to FAQ that out.

T Bone · « **Reply #36 on:** Feb 11, 2012, 06:54:28 PM »

Quote from: Draaka on Jan 10, 2012, 06:38:36 PM

I have a friend who has started running a unit of about 30 stormvermin with queek headtaker and the assassin character, whats the best way to deal with this, it decemated my vampire counts, I would like some advice before I have to face it with my ogres.

Queek is pretty fragile if you hit him, a Tyrant with the gold sigil sword or the sword of swift slaying should sort him out good and proper. Leading a unit of bulls for the 6+ fist ward with no other characters for the assassin to pick on should do the trick. A toughness buff (or regen if he's not got flaming attacks) will help no end. In my last game my Tyrant armed with the sword of swift slaying, greedyfist and giantbreaker beat down Queek and 20 stormvermin over a coouple of turns with only a sabretusk for support.

The assassin could prove problematic in the 2nd round of combat, however, Queek HAS to challenge, so if he reveals the assassin in the 1st round you can just pummel him with ogres, and if he pops up in the 2nd you can sacrifice the unit champion. Hopefully after a couple of rounds you should have squished enough rats for the unit to no longer be a problem.

Slaaneshy sinner · « **Reply #37 on:** Feb 11, 2012, 08:59:29 PM »

Quote from: Johnny-Crass on Feb 10, 2012, 10:48:08 PM

Also do not waste cannon shots at 2 point slaves. Wohoo you killed 10 slaves!...

Skaven will have more than just 1 big unit and not just of slaves

Johnny-Crass · « **Reply #38 on:** Feb 11, 2012, 09:43:34 PM »

Most skaven I play against have slaves and monks as big units and since monks are run in horde with a tower you never really shoot them you just shoot the tower.

Stormvermin are to expensive to be decent and the only use for clannies is a bunker

Slaaneshy sinner · « **Reply #39 on:** Feb 12, 2012, 08:07:18 AM »

How is 7 points to expensive to be good they have hvy armour and halbards with WS4 and can take a magic banner sounds pretty damn good to me a horde of 40 will only cost around 300+ banner. For that cost we get 8 Ogres with FC and IF the Stormvermin will walk all over us.

If your facing a horde of Plague monks with furnace shooting the furnace is a good idea it has no ward and once it is destroyed the unit is a lot easier to deal with.

Johnny-Crass · « **Reply #40 on:** Feb 13, 2012, 12:16:16 AM »

The only use for stormvermin is to carry storm banner and even then they become a small unit just for that. If you give me the option of 3 slaves or one storm vermin I will take 3 slaves every time.

But this is a thread about ogres and not about Skaven and their stupidly good units

Slaaneshy sinner · « **Reply #41 on:** Feb 13, 2012, 06:22:16 AM »

True but a good Skaven player will have Stormvermin and in large blocks pushing a bell so it is important to talk about how amazingly good they are. An unbreakable unit with heavy armour and better WS than our units hitting at S4 before we get to strike is a major problem.
If they get the charge they will wipe out most Ogre units with ease in 1 or 2 turns.

Johnny-Crass · « **Reply #42 on:** Feb 13, 2012, 04:24:36 PM »

It is odd to see just how much the meta changes from place to place. Out here if you even get lucky enough to see a bell it is pushed by clannies and never on the front lines.

Koroviev · « **Reply #43 on:** Feb 13, 2012, 06:24:32 PM »

Bell in the back with clanrats is "safer" but bell with stormvermin and a seer with fencer's blades is more fun.

I started off playing the first way but have found 150 slaves on the field to be a bit boring recently. Neither is really good or bad, but I think a lot of skaven players don't regard the stormvermin/bell as a serious setup.

The clanrats/bell setup is definitely more reliable and defensive and plays into the high attrition style that skaven are built towards.

On topic, large units of stormvermin can be solid against smaller groups of ogres, but horded ogres will usually survive the damage and the stormvermin's low price is due to their lack of defense. Heavy armor alone really isn't anything special. Ogres at 5 strength will wound on 2s and not allow any kind of armor save for the vermin.

As I wrote above, regardless of Queek, stopping death frenzy is really a high priority in the magic phase if you're facing stormvermin in one of your combats.

Ironblasters' top targets should probably be Doomwheels, Warp Lightning Cannons, and Hellpits if you're able to land something flaming on them first (maneaters with a flaming banner or leadbelchers with a flaming bsb). The seer/bell have ward saves and all that business. If you only wound the seer, he'll heal with skalm.

Ard Boy · « **Reply #44 on:** Feb 25, 2012, 08:02:17 AM »

Hi you guys,

just had a friendly 2000 points game last night against Skaven and suffered a minor loss, but it was a really fun game.

Some advice for my fellow tyrants :

- watch out for the doomwheel, its shooting attacks can really hurt.I nearly lost my stonehorn in turn 1 due to it, the doomwheel didn't make it to turn 3

.

- The Hell pit is hard as hell and causes real pain. Kill it as soon as possible.

- The combination Queek with stormvermin is hard even for us ogres, the combined love of the IB and leadbelchers should do the work.

But it was fun , and up until turn 5 their was no real winner but then i lost my tyrant and all hell broke lose

cheers

madeinchina · « **Reply #45 on:** Mar 03, 2012, 04:40:47 PM »

I have a question on the bounce of e warp lightning cannon.

Does monstrous units like ogres block the shot if the model hit is not killed? Also if the shot is stopped then is the small template dropped on the surviving model?

Ogluk · « **Reply #46 on:** Mar 03, 2012, 05:19:17 PM »

Quote from: madeinchina on Mar 03, 2012, 04:40:47 PM

I have a question on the bounce of e warp lightning cannon.

Does monstrous units like ogres block the shot if the model hit is not killed? Also if the shot is stopped then is the small template dropped on the surviving model?

Q: If a shot from a Warp Lightning Cannon does not kill a
Monstrous Infantry/Beast/Cavalry or Monster model does that shot
stop? (p68)
A: No. All models are still hit.

From the latest Skaven FAQ

Adasi · « **Reply #47 on:** Mar 05, 2012, 12:47:14 PM »

Yeah - WLC's NEED to be your Ironblasters turn 1 priority - in fact they're a priority until they're no longer on the table!

Thunderbelly · « **Reply #48 on:** Apr 01, 2012, 05:51:15 PM »

Taking out Warp Lightning Cannons and Abominations with shooty units is priority number one.

Priority number two is to take out the grey seer with a hell heart/sniper Man Eaters.

Priority number 3, get your close combat units (Iron Guts for me) to bash their hordes. While fear isn't as useful as it would be against other armies due to strength in numbers, it can help sometimes. Combine that with heavy armor and unless they're running the Armor Piercing banner, most Skaven aren't going to deal damage to you. When it's your turn to attack, the sheer number of wounds you can cause (Impact hits, 2+ to wound due to Great Weapons, stomp) will more often than not lead you to taking out a rank a turn on average.

If you take out their magic and their devastating units, all that's left is a horde of rats for your own hordes to squash.

cameda09 · « **Reply #49 on:** Apr 22, 2012, 12:33:01 PM »

Whats the best way to deal with an Abomb at the 2000 points level? I'am not running a firebelly or flaming maneaters so I'am a bit worried that my army wont be able to deal with it. I'll have 1x5 and 1x4 of Mournfangs as well as 10 stubborn IG's with some chaff