Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs

[Hragged]

Post advice on playing against Dwarfs here.

Archived advice can be found by clicking here. Please note, the information within Archive topics may no longer be relevant due to the existence of newer army rules and Warhammer editions.


Dwarfs Ogre by Lewis Clarke

[Xoan]

I see the same stuff being extremely effective against us as when we were in 6th ed.  Anvils are powerful because we have so few units, their crossbowmen are strong with 30 inch range bows, and they can use great weapons.  Also they can have scout so they may not be in the normal dwarf deployment zone.

It is now common place that dwarfs use great weapons since they are initiative 2, the unbreakable blocks of heavy armor dwarfs has faded some since 8th ed.  They are just as hard to cast spells against if not hard yet.  They are an elite army that has a mid range of model count, but they can all have shooting attacks if they wish.


I said this a lot in the last set of posts that have not been archived, but it holds true even now, you need gorgers and trappers so you can go after war machines or trip trigger.  If you can get the anvil in combat it can not use the anvil itself, which will do more damage than a gorger at 45 skaven slaves or a unit of trappers for sure.

Do not charge a pair of Organ Guns they are doom to any Ogre unit you have near it, 2-10 strength 5 AP "hits" at 24 inch range each.  Even Flame Cannons are sick now since they drop a template and do a d3 flaming wounds.  Speaking of fire, a lot of things can have fire and some times many things can, throwers can, cannons can, heros or lords can, and flame cannons for sure are. heh

Slayers are hard to deal with since they always wound on 4s, they an either take 2 attacks each or increase their strength to your toughness +2 so they need 2+ to wound, but their strength does cap at 6, if you can get that above that some how.  They are unbreakable and are only 4.5 skaven slaves each.

[Mad Makka]

Larger units of Ogres are definately powerful against the new kinds of dwarf army being fielded these days, having enough attacks to slaughter half the unit to minimul return is a massive threat, even to ironbreakers. larger units are also able to weather the enemies shooting rather better and make it to the dwarf lines. I used to field about 50 missle troops in my dwarf army (mostly thunderers) plus the pair of organ guns. i now field a unit of 18 ogres which takes a lot of killing. Your opponant will have only one or maybe two shooting phases before you hit their line meaning my horde is able to make it to the lines with enough ogres left to carve through the dwarves

[Xoan]

Yeah I think Ogres will do very well against this version of dwarfs.  We're too killy in melee for the few dwarfs that are there to do enough later in the game, we move so fast that you should only get 2 rounds of combat, and our shooting with the Ironblaster, Thundertusk, and Hunter has improved greatly.

Another thing to think about for an 'Ard Boyz tournament, and I am considering it, but I only have a single Thundertusk.  Dwarfs do well there because they can bring this stupid gun line, and blast everything off the board, and make it skip into your carry bag.  However, much like the Zilla Nid theory from 40k, what if we Ran 5 Thundertusk and Hero slot Stonehorn and/or more Stonehorns in the rare slot.  Could one really kill them all before they crashed into the lines.  A double charge from either of those would destroy any mid size unit in short order imo.  Plus the mental imagery would be amazing!! The thought of going bowling for Dwarfs, and seeing their helmets going one way, while rest of the Dwarven soup goes flying another way, makes me wish I could draw better.

[rocdocta]

Dwarves arent too bad i think. no big killer spells. sure they may have 1 or 2 turns shooting, but no biggie. get a buff off or a str off and its fine. gunlines are pretty much dead now.

ie 40 quarrellers with GW = 20 hit at long range, 10 wound, 2 save. so 8 wounds.
2 cannon will on average do about 5 wounds each. so another 10 wounds.
so 18 wounds in total. thats about 6 ogres. sure they savage 1 unit. but we dont have only 1 unit. and that is without any buffs at all.

next turn assault and start the mayhem!

Using blocks of 8 plus characters means that 

[Brainfreezer]

Most of the time dwarves stay in one corner and hail down so much fire power that they wipe out entire units, but if you can take out one unit or win a round of combat and send them running, everybody else will have to take a panic test and after that more panicking and then more panic tests and so one. Simple? Yep.

[Davespaceman]

Reading whats een said I have some points and Some musings it's late so they're not in any order

You wont panic a dwarf army.


Hit them hard and fast.

for big units mournfangs with dragonhide banner charge in and hold them for a turn whislt you line up a multi charge with your guts.

 sabretusks for the warmachines

Get bullgorger on your bulls so the few hits you get through can wound

un buffed bulls are a bit too weak vs dwarfs with gw (seems to be the most common setup )for my liking
bulls
 hit with half wound with half 6+ save
+ stomp
dwarfs
hit 2/3 wound 2/3
+ ranks

depending on what their set up is a big ogre unit may be a liability 2 rounds of shooting and it will be a lot smaller especially with the dwarf ability to have flaming wrmachines to negate regen. But if they're light on shooting it would work good on a large unit of dwarfs

watch out for th -d6 to your charge banner it's messed up my charges on a number of occasions

That's all I have for now

[Slanderbot]

@ Davespaceman

I am not sure our single sabretusks will fare to well against dwarven warmachines, mabye if you are running small units, but not a single one :/.

However I DO agree with un-buffed bulls being just a bit to weak vs most dwarves (with any setup really) and having even a single buff would tip it in their favor!

[Auere]

However I DO agree with un-buffed bulls being just a bit to weak vs most dwarves (with any setup really) and having even a single buff would tip it in their favor!

However, bulls do strike before all the GW wielding dwarves (which are by far the most dangerous). So if you are running a bull horde, you can drastically reduce the number of strikebacks. The same can be achieved by buffing the bulls with +1S.

I am running a bull horde today led by a stubborn tyrant, and I might be facing dwarves. I think ill just ram them into any dwarf unit he has, and see what happens. I think I have the odds. Impact hits and 50+ s4 attacks should remove around 15 dwarves before return attacks.

[DragonEater]

I will be facing 2500 points of these bite-size morsels tomorrow and am wondering if I should even try bringing in some casters?  I generally like using magic but I haven't faced dwarfs with sorcery yet.  I was thinking of a level 4 Slaughtermaster and a Firbelly.  If not them then I was going to run max 2 ironblasters and a stonehorn in their place.

[Davespaceman]

magic is definetly worth it you wont get much cast but what you do will be very useful.

the maw spell is especially good on dwarfs their initiative is as bad as ours.

[DragonEater]

Glad to hear it.  I wasn't looking forward to a casterless list.  Crazy as it may be I like the danger and randomness of including this ticking timebombs.

[Xoan]

magic is definetly worth it you wont get much cast but what you do will be very useful.

the maw spell is especially good on dwarfs their initiative is as bad as ours.

Yes but miscasting maw is extremely effective on us too. hehe

[DragonEater]

Magic did indeed pay off and turned my large block of bulls into a very effective unit (trollguts helped quite a bit).  I ended up facing 90 quarellers, 1 cannon and 3 stone throwers.  My mournfangs took a beating but for the most part I just ran everything across the field and he didn't manage to do all that much to me before I made contact.  Basically, I just operated under the idea that I'm going to have to get to his line as quickly as possible and I was going to take some hits.  For this reason I kept my large block heading up the center to draw fire and sent my smaller unit of IG down the side (trying to keep them blocked by terrain as much as possible).  I also deployed a unit of 6 leadbelchers but they didn't have much of an impact on the battle.  I still believe they can be effective in theory though.  I'm thinking that further expanding my bull unit will make it better at weathering enemy gunlines and perhaps taking some scouting maneaters to try and put a threat in their backfield from the beginning may be a good idea.

[Xoan]

I have 24 bulls myself with two commands, I am wanting to increase it some more myself, I think in large numbers with more than one horde they can do very well.  Basically 3 horded units of bulls equal 2 of IG, and that doesn't mean more killing power, but does mean they have a lot more to deal with and that could be very good.

[Auere]

Hordes of bulls are tremendously effective against dwarves.

First of all, they have the resiliance through wounds toughness and armour to take heavy fire. And they are not that expensive, so if your enemy targets them, it protects more fragile units like maneaters, ironguts or leadbelchers.

Second, dwarves only really deal any damage to bulls if they have great weapons. And if they have great weapons they only have a 5+ as and the bulls strike first. A horde of bulls can kick out 50+ s4 attacks in addition to up to 6 S6 impact hits (sometimes 6d3 impact hits!) before the dwarves strike back. That can often thin out the dwarves ranks by 20 models before they strike back. Add stomps to that, and be pretty sure that you are winning.

Dwarves do not stand a good chance versus ogres in close combat.

[Phazael]

Take two Ironblasters and call me in the morning.  But seriously, sit in your deployment zone and counterbattery their war machines.  In all likelyhood, he will be castled which will give you two for one shots often.  Once his cannons are down, you make him come to you, which is a dwarf player's worst nightmare.  If you have the Heavens SM, its even worse as you can just six dice Comet at him to further punish the turtling.

[datalink7]

Take two Ironblasters and call me in the morning.  But seriously, sit in your deployment zone and counterbattery their war machines.  In all likelyhood, he will be castled which will give you two for one shots often.  Once his cannons are down, you make him come to you, which is a dwarf player's worst nightmare.  If you have the Heavens SM, its even worse as you can just six dice Comet at him to further punish the turtling.

I think this is a losing proposition.  A typical Dwarf army will have either 2x Grudgethrower and 1x Cannon, or 2x Cannon and 1x Grudge Thrower.

So they are already up by one warmachine.

Even worse, their warmachines are much more accurate and reliable.  Chances are, you are going to lose a war machine shooting match 90% of the time.

And there is always a chance he'll take even more warmachines.

Also, a Horde of crossbows is not out of the question either, on top of everything else, which can whittle down even Ogres if you just sit there and take it.

I wouldn't want to get in a shooting match with Dwarves with any army except perhaps a very heavy artillery focused Empire force.

[DragonEater]

Datalink has it right in my opinion.  You will be outgunned by the dwarfs, ironblasters are nice but they are still just cannons when used as you suggest, and the enemy will have more on of them as well as grudge throwers most likely.  Ironblasters are good at what they do but you are much more likely to misfire than dwarfs so in a war of attrition the odds are stacked against you.  Taking two ironblasters itself isn't a bad idea but I wouldn't hang back.  Ogres need to take advantage of their mobility and get into combat as soon as possible (in most cases).

[Xoan]

Datalink has it right in my opinion.  You will be outgunned by the dwarfs, ironblasters are nice but they are still just cannons when used as you suggest, and the enemy will have more on of them as well as grudge throwers most likely.  Ironblasters are good at what they do but you are much more likely to misfire than dwarfs so in a war of attrition the odds are stacked against you.  Taking two ironblasters itself isn't a bad idea but I wouldn't hang back.  Ogres need to take advantage of their mobility and get into combat as soon as possible (in most cases).

One of the most important things still for Ogres is having stuff that can not be predicted, like Trappers, Gorgers, units with Vanguard and/or scout in general.  Without that shooting armies stand fairly strong chance of killing enough to weaken us greatly.   We move faster, but if they move back there is a strong chance that many of our units will not reach until the 3rd turn, which means that they still get their normal 2 rounds of shooting.

They may not be able to kill the Deathstar before it hits, but if they kill everything else and then block movement with small units like Slayer heroes for 50 points each, than your Deathstar will not make up the points.  When I play dwarfs that is how I use Slayer Heroes, since they are t5, and unbreakable.  in a 2500 point game it is not a bad plan to have 10 or 12 of them to stall redirect units, even kill/hunt stuff that is evading being shot at.


My point is that without trappers, or gorgers, though we are fast we still have to cross that distance.  Anvils will slow us, cannons will split ranks, bolts still hurt, grudge throwers are annoying, and the number of units that can have flaming attacks means we wont have regeneration.

[Shadowlord]

When facing Dwarfs it seems like terrain is just something from dreams, and pitched battle the only scenario that exists.

[Xoan]

You just hit the greatest weakness of Dwarfs, and why I am not sure what they can do to fix them.  They are an army with no Calvary, though dwarfs on goats sounds awesome!!!  They only have one unit that can more than 3 inches and that is the gyrocopter, which has 3 wounds and is toughness 5... with a 4+ armor save.  So anything that deals with movement sucks, and a lot of 8th has movement in it.    Sure dwarfs are pretty strong in melee so they can some times earn their points back, but now that things cost less, also the 2nd rank can attack now too, and that if they have more units than you they are steadfast their +8 or +9 CR doesn't mean a lot.


Their cheapest unit is a regular warrior, who costs 9 points base, so times by 3 that is 27, give them a shield they're 30 points at S3 and a 4+ save, give them just a great weapon they're 32 points with a S5 and 5+ save.   That is the cheapest thing dwarfs have,   Strong units like Ironbreaker, Longbeards, Hammers, and even slayers start at 11 points each and work up to 13 points each and they're all at least S4.   However, they do not have anything that is S5 in the army other than some lord choices... well that is partly true.  Slayers match their enemies toughness up to 6 with their strength so they always need a 4+ to wound unless they use their great weapon than they need a 2+ and can go up to 6+2 strength.

So with 3 Ironbreakers or Hammers both costing the same for the base model at 39 points, and if the Hammers who come with great weapons want to buy shields they can making them 42 points each.  You would think that Ironbreakers who can only have a shield and hand weapon would have special abilities, but they do not, they only have their 3+ armor save and parry save at 6+.  Both these units can have runic standards which is for the most part pretty powerful though it costs a ton to get the good stuff.

Long Beards are warrior based at +3 points, they get +1 strength and +1 WS as well.  So a fully loaded up Longbeard with great weapon, shield, and the base model we are looking at 14 points each.  Also they can have the option to be a Ranger at +1 points and can scout, but the dwarfs can still only have one unit that is ranger unless they take a special character than they can take two units.


Another unit that was not big in the past, but is coming around to me with this ed, there are Miners.  They're 11 points base and have great weapons at S5 with a 5+ armor save.  The come on through late deployment and with an Anvil they can surprise you some.  If I were to bring them I would go big or go home, I would bring 35 to 40 man horded up units with an anvil, however that is so many points it is sick.  easily 900+ points for a single miner unit and anvil, with 3  units of miners figure that at 1500 points for that little trick or more.  But that is some sort of trick. hehe


Back the post above me, as anything that makes you move means that dwarfs can not use gun lines properly, and the dwarf units that are melee have to use great weapon to be competitive.

[Phazael]

You guys need to get some games in with the 2x IBlaster setup.  I have faced off againt four seperate dwarf lists since settling into my new tournament army and only the combat list posed a callenge.  Gunlines have been curb stomped by me every time, because two IBlasters will rook up to six normal war machines every time, especially if he castles in a manner that gives you two for one shots on them.  Cannons die first, then Stone throwers, then go for the Organ Guns.  Sit 25 inches away from his thunderers all game and watch him slog it three turns across the table because he has no choice.  If you are like me and running either fire or heavens, you can up the ante in the magic phase too.  There is nothing more melodious to my ears than listening to Empire and Dwarf players complain about having to slog across the table against superior firepower; irony at its finest.

Now the combat list is another beast entirely, especially when backed by an anvil and some miners....

[Xoan]

The last tournament I played in I won, and it was less than 2 months ago.  It was not a huge one, but I have still done well at other ones that were 80ish members, the last one of those I took 4th, but that was before the new book came out.

Maybe What I was saying was getting gargled, in the length of my post.  so I will try and clarify it some heh.  Dwarf Shoot has to go full on shooting to have a chance, there are so many models out there that if you can not max grudge throwers, cannons, organ guns, and have an anvil as a min you are suffering imo.  Dwarfs are so outnumbered that it seems like jerk list to play against, but in 8th ed you have two turns to shoot if you do not move forward an inch, maybe 3 if you go first and play it right.   That is less than half the game, then it is a cascade of units dropping as they slam you and go from one unit, and then overrun into another unit.

Big Block lists are completely out numbered by horde style armies, and have to fortify themselves in a corner and hope you come play.  If they have to move across the field they have to have an oathstone sobeing flanked wont matter, because it will happen as even other armies that are semi elite like Ogres might field more units than Dwarfs do.

In general Dwarf stats do not equal Ogre stats, they are either equal too or less, and if they are equal they cost more than an Ogre by far.  Most dwarf armor doesn't matter against ogres as we are S4 or S5 against them often times, and that means they either get a 6+ or no save when they have great weapons which is really the only way to play them as of right now.   I say right now, because CR was a dwarf's best friend, and now it is negated by steadfast.   So if he/she builds a list not meant to fight Ogres directly and brings a list that is meant to fight a random opponent, they should have great weapons.   Our Ogres will go first and crush many of them, and our IG will go with them and take more wounds, but kill even more since they need 2+ to wound the toops.


I have also played about 20 games in 8th as a Dwarf player btw, and in 7th I played well over a 100 games.  dwarfs still is my largest army being well over 400 models.   I got into Ogres before I knew they were going to be the next book, because I liked Ogres, and I could not figure out a army list with my dwarfs and beastmen, that and friend called me told me a bunch of my college friends were going to a tournament and I had 26 days to paint a 2500 army list. hehe  so I mass ordered Ogres and painted 49 of them for the tournament.   Which was way better than buying 100 more dwarfs give them great weapons since 7th they were not as popular, and then paint about 150 of them. hehe 

Ps. I am painting my 2nd Ironblaster now btw, I know how awesome it is, in every game I have played it has earned its points back and then some.  Even when I charge it into melee to tie up a unit that was chasing my horded IG unit's rear. hehe

[datalink7]

You guys need to get some games in with the 2x IBlaster setup.  I have faced off againt four seperate dwarf lists since settling into my new tournament army and only the combat list posed a callenge.  Gunlines have been curb stomped by me every time, because two IBlasters will rook up to six normal war machines every time, especially if he castles in a manner that gives you two for one shots on them.  Cannons die first, then Stone throwers, then go for the Organ Guns.  Sit 25 inches away from his thunderers all game and watch him slog it three turns across the table because he has no choice.  If you are like me and running either fire or heavens, you can up the ante in the magic phase too.  There is nothing more melodious to my ears than listening to Empire and Dwarf players complain about having to slog across the table against superior firepower; irony at its finest.

Now the combat list is another beast entirely, especially when backed by an anvil and some miners....

Sounds to me you have been facing sub par dwarf players.  For one, what dwarf player allows you to go "2 for 1" on war machines?  Who would line their machines up like that?

For another, almost no good dwarf player uses Thunderers.  They use crossbows (30" range) if anything because they can have great weapons and rock in hand to hand as well as with range, though most don't even use crossbows.

And another point, many dwarf players will take master rune of grungi and put many of his war machines within its range.  So not only are you facing war machines that are more accurate than yours, but they also have a 5+ ward save.

Unless you are a god with dice every single time, there is no way you should be able to take out 6 war machines.  And that's if you go first.  If you go second, you have even less of a shot.

As for magic, at a bare minimum, you will be minus 1 power dice and he'll be up 3 dispel dice every phase, AND have 2 dispel scrolls.  And there is a good chance he'll have even more magic defense (another dispel dice and +1 to dispel is most likely).