Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs

[Xoan]

And another point, many dwarf players will take master rune of grungi and put many of his war machines within its range.  So not only are you facing war machines that are more accurate than yours, but they also have a 5+ ward save.

I normally do this with a Unit of Longbeards so that I have rerolls on failed panic tests, and a last line of Defense since the Longbeards can take up to 50 points in runes on their standard.

Also depending on how many war machines you take some times you can't help giving up 2 for 1... hehe  I personally can max everything number wise at 2500 points though the point wise I run out of space with my rares if you count Gyros which are sort of a flying war machine.

[ShootingPhase]

Also be aware of combat listed Dwarfs. Dwarf stat lines are nothing to sneeze at and with good WS and T they are tough little troops, with the only disadvantages being slow speed and lack of multiple attacks on their units (excluding Slayers).

Combat oriented Dwarf players with low costing war machines are a tough match to tackle. A 160 point cannon will do the same damage as a 105 point cannon, with only a artillery reroll dividing the two in reliability. With that cost, they could run 3 for the price of 2, which is far better deal. This allows them to focus on running more combat blocks; with Miner units providing outflanking support (especially with the use of AoD).

In order to counter this, we apply the same tactics, using cheap artillery hunters (such as Sabertusks) and counter battering with Ironblasters. Ironblasters are great at this, but also don't discount the use of Stonehorns. Although expensive, they can absorb alot of cannon ball shots, protecting your Ogre blocks from harm, and if he decides to ignore them, he will have two unhurt monsters rampaging into his troops, which he still won't have tons of. He can't play the 500 man skaven list with dwarfs, so he will suffer far more with 7-10 Dwarfs dying a turn in H2H.   

[Xoan]

Also be aware of combat listed Dwarfs. Dwarf stat lines are nothing to sneeze at and with good WS and T they are tough little troops, with the only disadvantages being slow speed and lack of multiple attacks on their units (excluding Slayers).

Combat oriented Dwarf players with low costing war machines are a tough match to tackle. A 160 point cannon will do the same damage as a 105 point cannon, with only a artillery reroll dividing the two in reliability. With that cost, they could run 3 for the price of 2, which is far better deal. This allows them to focus on running more combat blocks; with Miner units providing outflanking support (especially with the use of AoD).

In order to counter this, we apply the same tactics, using cheap artillery hunters (such as Sabertusks) and counter battering with Ironblasters. Ironblasters are great at this, but also don't discount the use of Stonehorns. Although expensive, they can absorb alot of cannon ball shots, protecting your Ogre blocks from harm, and if he decides to ignore them, he will have two unhurt monsters rampaging into his troops, which he still won't have tons of. He can't play the 500 man skaven list with dwarfs, so he will suffer far more with 7-10 Dwarfs dying a turn in H2H.

I believe the phrase I am looking for is, "Off the Cuff", this I mean it sounds like you are speaking off the cuff.  I say this because a lot of what you wrote has either been said already but with a different result, or doesn't pass the smell test at all.  Let me give a few examples  below...


To find a way to sort of match up Ogres to Dwarfs, you can either make Dwarfs cost three times as much so you have the same number of attacks, or you can divide Ogres by 3 so you h 1 Wound and in most cases 1 Attack.  Then you can compare point costs and stat lines easier.  In this case I want to divide Ogres by 3 thirds which will not be painful as it sounds.  Look below some....


There are many more Ogre units we could divide into amounts to get them to a single wound and compare them, but none of the rest are really going after units with the CR that Dwarfs are normally throwing around.  I also want to go over the few points I would agree on, those are; we still need units with scout, ambush, or crazy speed at worse to in any fight to pop unit reactions, or go after war machines.  The other thing I agree with is that Stonehorns are perfect cannon ball bait, and as  Dwarf player myself I would not shoot them with a cannon ball unless I had too.   I would run a Slayer Hero out into its charge range and watch it fail it's leadership and charge it.  I would turn the model slightly so that the Stonehorn adjusted to meet my front arc and left a flank charge on the next turn.  I would trade 50 points to occupy 250+ Hunter if any for a turn, and with luck I would mess up future charges the Ogre player had with blocked LoS due to the Stonehorn's new position.   Stonehorns are good imo when used right, and that is about turn 3 + after things are locked in combat.

You also made the commit that Dwarf stat lines are nothing to sneeze at, and I would agree, but at what cost is the question.  The difference of WS 4 or 5 is nothing to an Ogre player, if you are a 3+ for the most part we don't care we need a 4 to hit you if you are a normal troop.   Very rare is a unit WS 7... the only time that comes to mind is against VC.   As far as the rest of the Dwarf stat line, a S3 or S4 is fairly average, a T4 is nice, but many armies have that, and S6 doesn't care if you are T1 or T4. Also 1 attack is average, a I2 is lower than average, and LD9 well that is pretty nice.   However, when you pick up handfuls of models unless you are stubborn your LD doesn't matter.

Ogres do not have a S3 Ogre model, we are all S4 +.  I am not counting Gnoblars since they are in another case by themselves, and I would match them up point to point, and I bet Dwarfs would lose every time either by running away or being stuck in combat for 6+ sides of combat.  If you are stuck in combat for 6+ sides of combat and nothing else hits you, you are super lucky imo.


Lets get to those comparisons now. hehe


Working off the base costs

Ogres are 10 points each they have Light Armor
Ironguts are 14.33 points each they have Heavy Armor and Great Weapon.
Leadbeltchers are 14.33 points each they have Light Armor, and shoot an average of 1.17 shots each.
Maneaters are 16.67 points each they have Light Armor, they have 1.34 attacks, and have a ton of special rules and ways to be equipped.


Warriors are 9 points each, they have Heavy Armor
Longbeards are 12 points each, they have Heavy Armor and are S4
Crossbowmen are 11 points each (if I remember right the book is not next to me atm), they have Light Armor, shoot once per turn, and have Greatweapon upgrades.
Once per army you can take one of the three units above and make them Rangers for 1 point more per model giving them scout
Thunders are 14 points each, they have Light Armor, and shoot once per turn.
Hammers are 12 points each, they have Heavy Armor, Great Weapons, they are S4, and Stubborn and maybe immune to fear if with a Dwarf Lord.
Ironbreakers are 13 points each with a 3+ armor and are S4
Miners are 11 points each they have Light Armor, sadly only are S3, but they have Great Weapons.
Slayers are 11 points each they have no armor, but they are Unbreakable, their Strength equals your Toughness up to 6, and they choose to use their weapons as Hand Weapon and Off Hand, or as a Great Weapon add +2 Strength to their swing.  So they are always wounding you on a 4+ or a 2+ basically.

So when you look at the differences between Dwarfs and Ogres, you can see that they are slightly more survivable than Ogres, because more units have Heavy Armor, and they are slightly cheaper, but what you do not see they are no where as Kill as Ogres are.  None of those units get Monstrous Infantry  Stomp attacks, and Dwarfs they can be hit by these attack, and they do not get Impact hits.  Also because we have more than one wound, when they take a wound they lose a model if we take a wound we do not lose a model, we have to lose three wounds than we lose three attacks.  How often do you find yourself near the end of combat with two wounds on a model, that is huge against anyone else who does not have that.

So basically by the time you make Dwarfs slightly more killy, they cost +2 points per model, making them all but Warriors and Hammers cost more than all but the Maneaters which pays a lot of points for special abilities.  Even then they still are not as killy as an Ogre is, and we have spells that more than make up whether you get the charge off due to the AoD.  Also the AoD still has some punch with the Rune of Wrath, the one that does either a d6 or d3 units take 2d6 S4 attacks.  The sad part is, if you role below the score of 2+ or 4+ you are now putting this 325 to nearly 500 point model at risk of exploding.  So if you are rolling for an ancient rune of power so you can rock those coming at you and cutting their movement in half or knocking them out of the sky you need a 4+.  If you roll only a 3, now you have a 1 in 6 chance of losing your anvil, or another words if you pushed it hard each game you have 8% chance per round to lose it, which works out to be a 48% per game of losing it because the Dwarf player rolled bad.  I think my odds are higher than that btw. hehe




Also an after thought, I would never run a Stonehorn into a unit of anything unless it was less than 14 models, without some sort of support.  Logic Hammer A Stonehorn has 3d3 impact hits, and if it lives it gets d6 thunderstomp attacks, and if it rolls above 10 inches it can get +3 impact hits.   Lets say it has a lot of luck and gets the +3 impact hits, and gets it's Thunderstomp when I figure this math out.  3d3+3 d6 on average that is 11.75 attacks at S6, so probably needs 2s to wound, so 9.87 wounds.   Lets round that to 10 wounds, but consider it could be less, if you have 14 or less models than on average you should have less than 5 models left alive, if you have more than 5 models they are steadfast.  I personally side on the side of caution on this, as being held in place is a horrible place to be.  That is why I expect the Rider to pick up the extra 1 or 2 rolled by the mount, and I do not go for 13 or less.  On average he is going to kill 1 to 2 on his own.

I personally would take the rider with a Harpoon Launcher for free, and let him spend the first three turns shooting targets at a far, than move in and crash into something (S6 at 36 inch range doing d3 wounds is nothing to sneeze at)


In short I would put any equal point Ogre unit against any equal point Dwarf unit, and expect to win or in certain match ups like against Hammers and Crossbowmen weaken them to the point that they are no longer effective against us.  Those are the two strong units that Dwarfs have, everything else is not as cool as their points are expensive.

Also Dwarfs greatest ability is their diversity in war machines, as they get more out there for less than all of the other armies, however in 8th ed many games require you to move, terrain has negative effects, and there is more of it.   So play 8th the way it was intended and Dwarfs have some major issues until they get their new book imo.

I do not fear Dwarf blocks, I do fear their total shooting lists, as they still can do a lot.

[ShootingPhase]

See, but people already explained why shooty Dwarfs have a disadvantage against us, via gorgers, scouting man eaters, Ironblasters etc.

I have played Dwarfs for quite a few years and I see where total shooty and total combat Dwarf armies have their advantages and disadvantages, so by playing both extremes along side more balanced lists I can see where Dwarfs have the most advantages and disadvantages, so don't disregard me as in terms as to how Dwarfs work. You can spam Dwarf hero slayers if you like, I see too many of them as easy points, and with sniper eaters they are hardly going to be good redirects as you say.

Now I do understand that heavy shooting lists are brutal to tackle, but fundamentally they will be weaker model count wise compared to a more rounded list, and can suffer from AOE spells if allowed to get off. Now you can theory hammer all you want, but be aware in either scenario, it will be important to see who goes first. First turn can define whether or not a couple of his warmachines or your troops/monsters stay around for your go. The one advantage Ogre players have that Dwarfs lack is moble cannons, so the risk of losing them decreases depending on terrain deployment. You also have to factor the terrain itself when determining how fights and outcomes may resolve (unless open ground with a couple normal hills with normal trees with one normal building is how the games are run, which is boring and lacks the fundamental use that magical terrain is suppose to provide). I played many games in which dictation of terrain turned a losing game into a victory on my behalf. So factors like this cannot be ignored when playing either side of the table.

[Xoan]

See, but people already explained why shooty Dwarfs have a disadvantage against us, via gorgers, scouting man eaters, Ironblasters etc.

I have played Dwarfs for quite a few years and I see where total shooty and total combat Dwarf armies have their advantages and disadvantages, so by playing both extremes along side more balanced lists I can see where Dwarfs have the most advantages and disadvantages, so don't disregard me as in terms as to how Dwarfs work. You can spam Dwarf hero slayers if you like, I see too many of them as easy points, and with sniper eaters they are hardly going to be good redirects as you say.

Now I do understand that heavy shooting lists are brutal to tackle, but fundamentally they will be weaker model count wise compared to a more rounded list, and can suffer from AOE spells if allowed to get off. Now you can theory hammer all you want, but be aware in either scenario, it will be important to see who goes first. First turn can define whether or not a couple of his warmachines or your troops/monsters stay around for your go. The one advantage Ogre players have that Dwarfs lack is moble cannons, so the risk of losing them decreases depending on terrain deployment. You also have to factor the terrain itself when determining how fights and outcomes may resolve (unless open ground with a couple normal hills with normal trees with one normal building is how the games are run, which is boring and lacks the fundamental use that magical terrain is suppose to provide). I played many games in which dictation of terrain turned a losing game into a victory on my behalf. So factors like this cannot be ignored when playing either side of the table.

No offense mate. The issue I am seeing is the main difference between my post and yours, in mine I showed where I agreed and did not agree, but then I further went to explain my position.  I am not sure where you are coming down on any subject.  In general, "Generalities", are not as helpful as detailed explanations.

You picked out the fact that I like using Slayer Heroes, I normally play with 1 to 3 that is only 50 to 150 points, and if I can trade 50 points to stop a charge for a turn that is perfect.  Do they have an affect against a unit by themselves, I would say unless it is an extremely weak unit no, but they are toughness 5 with two wounds with a high WS.  So they have to hit and wound twice, or you are stuck there even if I lose combat.  That is the value I see with them.  Also if a unit or a sniper wishes to shoot them, I'd say go for it, that is something else they are not shooting.   My point about taking a ton of them, was to combat certain issues and is not something I would do in a GT or friendly game, 99% of the time I would not do that.


Anyways, best of luck to you, and kill another Dwarf for me.

[Phazael]

Ironblasters will nearly always get the first shot off against another gunline because of their ability to fire on the move, letting them hide behind things in case you do not get first turn.  Most Dwarves around here who go full frontal male nudity gunline typically run two cannons, two grudge throwers, and two organ guns.  They then back this up with two semi-unbreakable combat blocks, a block of shooters of some sort, and maybe one unit of miners.  They also bring enough magic defense to choke a rhino to death, which is largely irrelevant when you can just 6 dice chuck it and f--- it when you want to push a spell through.  Snipereaters, if you actually run them, really dork this list over even worse.  Popping 6 war machines with two IBlasters and Poison Pistoleaters over the course of the game is easily done, with even average rolls, so I am not sure what you are talking about in terms of god rolls.

I mean, really, I play good people and do well when I do.  Facing gunline armies with double IBlaster is just plain comically easy, but maybe the normally good people I face do not know how to cope with a moving cannon thats immune to normal war machine hunters?

[datalink7]

Ironblasters will nearly always get the first shot off against another gunline because of their ability to fire on the move, letting them hide behind things in case you do not get first turn.  Most Dwarves around here who go full frontal male nudity gunline typically run two cannons, two grudge throwers, and two organ guns.  They then back this up with two semi-unbreakable combat blocks, a block of shooters of some sort, and maybe one unit of miners.  They also bring enough magic defense to choke a rhino to death, which is largely irrelevant when you can just 6 dice chuck it and f--- it when you want to push a spell through.  Snipereaters, if you actually run them, really dork this list over even worse.  Popping 6 war machines with two IBlasters and Poison Pistoleaters over the course of the game is easily done, with even average rolls, so I am not sure what you are talking about in terms of god rolls.

I mean, really, I play good people and do well when I do.  Facing gunline armies with double IBlaster is just plain comically easy, but maybe the normally good people I face do not know how to cope with a moving cannon thats immune to normal war machine hunters?

Here is what I mean about godly roles.

Ignoring Organ Guns, since they won't be in the artillery exchange fight.

Using your example, Dwarf Army has 2 cannons and 2 Grudge Throwers.  If they are going full gunline most of the time they will have engineers for 4 wounds.  Most of them will be within the range of 5+ ward save.  They will all be more accurate with rerolling of the artillery dice. 

Ogre Army has 2 Ironblasters.  They will have a greater chance to misfire.  Bounce is accurate of course.  Their one main advantage is 5 wounds instead of 4.  But hey don't have a ward save and there is less of them.

The only way they can hide the first turn is if you have a piece of terrain helping you out (namely, building or a hill as with TLOS most forests don't do enough to block a shot).  Even if you do have this, and get the first shot, on average you will maybe kill one war machine.  You will then have three shooting back at you, which will kill at least one.  Then you are 1 vs. 3, which on average won't even kill one of theirs, so you will then be 0 vs. 3.  And this is IF you get the right terrain to get the first shot.  If you don't, you might not kill any.  I don't feel like doing the hard math right now but a cursory look will get you there.

Sure, you might get lucky/godly rolls and kill two war machines before they fire, have them do nothing to you, and then kill two more on the next turn.  But it's not likely.

I didn't say Ironblasters are useless.  They are good support as you move up.  What I thought was a bad move was to sit back and try to do an artillery exchange before moving forward.  Use ironblasters in conjunction with an assault, not in lieu of one.

[Xoan]

I want to agree with Datalink7, but I also want to add another point to that that is slightly different.  By Datalink7's math which I agree with that is the 3rd turn, but then our melee troops are in combat.  Even if both Ironblasters die, I would gladly trade 340 points of my team to get me into melee.

The problem with Dwarfs which is mostly hinted at here, is it is hard to balance them in a way that allows you to have enough shooting to make it worth it while having enough melee to survive what reaches you.  That is why you hear about total shooting or total melee armies doing better.  So a shooting army that only takes 6 war machines is doomed to have a rough time while playing Dwarfs.

Thunders and Crowssbowmen are core, so no need to skip those points toward shooting, and Crossbowmen can use Great Weapons so they are normally seen over Thunders which have stronger guns though shorter range.  You can max out your points with Special and Rares if you wish to continue being total shooting, so everything has a gun.  AoD are popular with them to slow enemies down, and do some damage, but they are a huge risk too.   However, effective lists like this will be rarely seen out side of an Ard' Boyz and few people have 6 cannons, 6 grudge throwers, 6 bolt throwers, 4 organ guns and 4 flame cannons, or basically enough to max out your slots.  I come close with having everything but the grudge thowers, I have 4 of them, and flame cannons which I have 2 of. heh

[Phazael]

Xoan gets it. 

Of course, the Dwarf player is the one who needs the godlike rolls, because stone throwers basically only hit center on 1 in 3 shots, which is why as the Ogre player I always focus on the cannons first.  You are also ignoring that the Ironblasters can actually hide behind walls (stops one shot) or even ogre units.  The Ironblasters also only misfire 1 in 6, but are stupidly accurate when they don't.  Meanwhile the poison pistol maneaters are also knocking off a war machine a turn until you engage them in combat, which is not the most desirable fight for the dwarves.

But lets say the dice gods are with you and you drop both Ironblasters by the end of turn two.  At this point, you have been dumping bullets into war machines, leaving the combat units intact.  Meanwhile, you have likely lost anywhere from 3-6 war machines yourself.  If you take the ward save BSB, its actually even worse because now you are huddling stuff together and giving the Ogre player two for one shots, while putting your entire army in one tight spot to be bum rushed.  Meanwhile, that Mournfang cav unit you ignored is probably mowing down a block a turn.  In the most ideal situations, the gunline dwarves are still at a huge disadvantage.

Combat Dwarves, on the other hand, are a totally different animal and on very even footing with Ogres, especially when backed by an Anvil and some Miners.  But there is something about that army that makes people who play it run it like they are playing 40k.....

[Far2Casual]

Good lord Bulls and Mournfangs are so awesome in CC against Dwarves.

Yesterday, my 11 Bulls + BSB (4 wide) were charged by 25 Rangers with Great Weapons. I killed 7 before they attacked, 4 more with stomps while he put only 5 wounds on my unit (18A, 10 hits, 8W, saved 2 with parries and one with the armour save of my BSB). Even with the charge, he was at snake eyes, and lost his 447 pts unit.

My 4 Mournfangs (+ Dragonhide) trashed a unit of 20 Hammerers (5 wide) in one round before the Stomps (pretty good rolls from Bulls though).

This is really a matchup where I don't see any use for Ironguts. Bulls strike first, do tons of damage, and take Dwarves' shooting way better than Ironguts as they simply have more bodies. You don't need any Magic Standard in a unit as you shouldn't even play a Slaughtermaster anyway.

[FearPeteySodes]

I havent had much trouble with dwarves in 8th but the one peice of advice i can impart is watch out for those charges!  Having not played a ton of dwarves for a while i got charged an embarrasing amount of times in my first few games against them in 8th.

3+2d6 is not that much different than 6+2d6 so dont get greedy!  I was shocked at the new somewhat speedy dwarves!

[Sandals]

You're right, I got caught out like that once. However, the extra 3 inches is significant when it comes to aligning your distance. If we assume people are happy to try a 7+ charge as it happens over 50% of the time, then Dwarfs want to be 10" from you at the start of their turn. However, Ogres by the same logic wouldn't mind being within 13". This makes the Dwarf charge a 10+ - a much more unlikely prospect.

Ogres should still dictate the charges against Dwarfs.

[FearPeteySodes]

You're right, I got caught out like that once. However, the extra 3 inches is significant when it comes to aligning your distance. If we assume people are happy to try a 7+ charge as it happens over 50% of the time, then Dwarfs want to be 10" from you at the start of their turn. However, Ogres by the same logic wouldn't mind being within 13". This makes the Dwarf charge a 10+ - a much more unlikely prospect.

Ogres should still dictate the charges against Dwarfs.

Absolutely, my opponent really just got some nasty rolls one turn and surged forward 16" on one unit and 14" on the other.

[Johnny-Crass]

Absolutely, my opponent really just got some nasty rolls one turn and surged forward 16" on one unit

How?  Dwarves are rolling 13's on 2d6 now?

[FearPeteySodes]

Hah 15", bad fingers...

[Emergency Rations]

I've banged my head against my friend's Dwarves a couple of times, so coming here to post thoughts and ask for more advice. I've seen two main list variations.

'Furgil's List', which comes from our friends-in-gaming enemies-in-army-choice over at Bugmans. Basicly, a horde of hammerers, two hordes of great weapon warriors, 2 cannons, a grudge thrower, 2 organ guns. Some dwarf 'Hahaha, you invested in magic' runelords and some annoying unkillable character. I'll dig out the link to the army post on Bugman's if someone wants to see it.

The Anvil of Doom. A similar list to the above, but the runelord is now hanging out with an Anvil of Doom. Only two real hordes and some other shooty dwarves hanging out with 2 cannons, 2 organ guns and a grude thrower. At least one of my core groups/characters gets slowed by the anvil on the first couple of turns and then get some random dwarves charges on the later turns.


Magic is worthless, I've only had success in one magic phase total. Otherwise, between Miscasts and dwarven dispelling the magic phase has largely been worthless. Heavens did perform well, though.


In both cases, I've no success if my ironblasters don't perform well. If I can get his grudgethrower (his perpetual mvp, I hate that damned thing-it just chips away too many models on the way in) or maybe one or more other war machines I'm okay and generally win. Without winning the shooting phase I'm toast before I get into close combat. I don't have any mournfang but I'm not sure they'd be anything other than a higher priority target for his war machine barrage.

I tried a few variations on Maneaters, had a decent amount of success with scouts + brace of pistols. Staying out of range of his Organ Guns helped, but Maneaters vs Hammerers didn't work that great, and the shooting was rather mediocre. My Gorger tends to get a face full of organ gun when he shows up deploying him further away just gets him a horde of Great weapons in the face.



I certainly need my ironblasters to earn their points against these lists. Mournfangs might help but I can't imagine they'll do anything other than get shot at before they get into combat. My Sabertusks can't redirect units that don't want to move and lose against dwarf war machine crews, gnoblars are really just wasted points against dwarves who hate them and won't charge trappers.

Any advice here?

[dirtycrabcakes]

I dont think that gnoblars count as greenskins, although my thought on gnoblars is that they provide excellent cover for the troops trailing behind. They would theoretically be providing hard cover vs. all of their guns and crossbows. No help against cannons or stone throwers of course... I would not even bother making them trappers. Just small units of 10, provinding simple screens to trailing leadbelchers/IGs/Bulls.

I am getting ready to play a dwarf gunline in my campaign and this was a tactic I was planning on implementing.

Thoughts?

[Sandals]

I dont think that gnoblars count as greenskins

The Dwarf book specifically lists gnoblars as a type of Greenskin. The iffy bit is whether things that contain gnoblars, such as our two chariots, also count as greenskins.

It's one for the Dwarf FAQ really

[dirtycrabcakes]

I dont think that gnoblars count as greenskins

The Dwarf book specifically lists gnoblars as a type of Greenskin. The iffy bit is whether things that contain gnoblars, such as our two chariots, also count as greenskins.

It's one for the Dwarf FAQ really

Either way, I'm not too concerned with my gnoblars getting into combat & dying. That's why they were created! 

[Enkiel]

i just learned that i'll be facing a dwarf gunline on my first game in a tournament... my first though about beating his cannon is deploying as large as the terrain allows me, negating any chance he has to kill 2 or more ogres.

i think its a pretty viable strategy. It also work against catapult, bolt thrower, basically, anything they have that can annoy us to no end.

[Johnny-Crass]

Keep in mind cannons do not need to see you to shoot you.  Also stonethrowers can be fired blind if you wish

[Enkiel]

Keep in mind cannons do not need to see you to shoot you.  Also stonethrowers can be fired blind if you wish

yeah, but its alot harder to catch 4-5 ogres that way. Cannon can shoot you, but if you are, for example, 9x1, he'll only be able to kill 1, instead of the standard 3x3.... obviously, when cc comes, crown of command will be very important to be able to stay there and reform for some more attacks, but i think its a pretty viable strategy.

[Johnny-Crass]

Yah but that footprint is kind of painful

[JFB324]

If the game is 2k or more, I usually make two warmachine "croups" each consisting: cannon with runes, grudge thrower with runes, organ gun, 10 - 20 quarrels and master engineer. Organ gun and quarrels (with gw's) protect from abushing units and scouts. Cannon can re-roll one missfire and do D6 wounds if grudge thrower does not roll missfire. Then master engineer will re-roll that one. Grudge thrower also has +1S and ability to re-roll scatter. To be even more reliable, I also take basic engineers. These "croups" may have also bolt throwers with engineers and runes. Also other "group" has runesmith or runelord with em. Getting in cc with ambushers or scouts is hard and if u manage to do so, you face war machine croups of 4, master engineer (with good armour and 2 S6 attacks), quarrels with gw's and the runelord/runesmith (with good armour and 2 S6 attacks). I deploy them on hills I possible.

This gunline does a lot of damage on anything and if the enemy gets in cc, there are horde of gw warriors and longbeards waiting for em. I also like to run a unit of 20-25 miners with a very angry thane

Haven't lost a game. Not going to

[Gongoro]

My own experience supports the MMU Ogre style.  The footprint of 6 Ogres is actually short enough that a cannon shot from the other side of the table has a decent chance of overshooting.  Artillery is hideously effective against our massive beasts (though the Stonehorn can take a hit and keep coming) and I expect it would be equally hideous against *-Star units.