Here is an Idea for my next 3,000pt against Skavies

[gorgeonyourface]

Well my last list got a Crushing Victory against a tomb king gunline/Necrosphinx/Bone giant... still lost my stonehorn though, what a shame... This next list is against skaven and although Skragg kicked some skellie
tail ive decided to drop him for a reg SM, here is the list...

Tyrant, Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, Greedy Fist.

Slaughtermaster, Lv4, Talisman of Preservation, Hellheart, great weapon.

BSB, Dragonhelm, Crown of Command, heavy armour, great weapon.

Hunter on Stonehorn, Ironfist, Armour of Destiny.

10 Ironguts,Full Command, Standard of Discipline.

90 Gnoblar, Full Command, Trappers.

6 Maneaters, heavy armour, braces of pistols, poisen/scouts.

4 Mournfangs, Full Command, heavy armour, ironfists, Dragonhide Banner.

1 Ironblaster.

T=3000

again, any tips would be appreciated

[MasteroDisaster]

I've never actually played against Skaven myself but from what I hear they love their regen. With that in mind wouldn't a Firebelly be an ideal choice for Hero instead of something like the Stonehorn + Hunter. Just keep your Firebelly the same or less points than the Hunter and take the Stonehorn as a Rare choice. Flaming Banner might be quite useful as well. Also I'd drop Scouts on the Maneaters for Sniper to hunt down those pesky rat mages. Heaven forbid they get the Dreaded Thirteenth spell off on your Gnoblar unit..... *shudders*

[gorgeonyourface]

Thnx for the advice I think This should be a good alteration, and I have all the Models too...

Tyrant, Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, Greedy Fist.

Slaughtermaster, Lv4, Talisman of Preservation, Hellheart, great weapon.

BSB, Dragonhelm, Crown of Command, heavy armour, great weapon.

Firebelly, lv2, great weapon, Opal Amulate, Healing Potion.

10 Ironguts,Full Command, Banner of the Eternal Flame.

94 Gnoblar, Full Command, Trappers.

6 Maneaters, heavy armour, braces of pistols, poisen/snipers.

5 Leadbelchers, includes Firebelly.

4 Mournfangs, Full Command, heavy armour, ironfists, Dragonhide Banner.

1 Ironblaster.

T=3000

[MasteroDisaster]

I had a game against Skaven this weekend. My opponent used a list consisting of a Grey Seer, Warplock Engineer, Warlord/Chieftan, about 100 slaves, 40 or so Stormvermin with a screaming bell, 2 Hellpit Aboms, and 4 ratswarms as half of a 4k alliance with DE's vs my Ogres and a friends Dwarves. Turns out flaming is REALLY useful. We struggled with the Hellpits to start with but flaming cannons eventually got the job done. It took my 10 IGs, BSB & SM 4 turns to clear a combat involving 40 SV + Screaming bell, 50 slaves and a horde of corsairs. Their sheer numbers caused all sorts of problems with combat res, my only saving grace was stubborn and the number of wounds I could dish out.

Thankfully due to my Dwarvern ally not to many Skaven or DE spells got off but they had some scary ones. I'd prep for a nasty magic phase and go heavy on the flaming attacks as that regen can be a royal bugger. Other than that they are nice n squishy so get up close n face roll them. I cant really comment on Skaven's ranged ability because my opponent had none which I thought was strange, was expecting lightning death but none came our way

With this in mind your new list looks really good in my opinion. The only change I might be inclined to make is giving the flaming banner to your MEs for snipy poisoned flames and give the Ig's the Discipline banner for that oh so useful +1 LD. It's not essential but it certainly helps, you have a Tyrant so you should be fine but it's worth looking into because we have all failed Ld tests by 1 or 2 in the past lol. Hopefully this limited experience against them might help out.

[Darkminion]

Only regen in the Skaven army is the Hellpit, which you will definetely face in all probability. Your Maneaters are ideal to handle it and anything running along with it. Drop the sniper on them and give them Scout and Poison with the flaming banner. Then simply drop them in front of the hellpit. Do not put them too close since you cannot stand and shoot against random movement charges and you will have two rounds of shooting against it, which will kill it most probably.

I would also consider giving either your Slaughtermaster or Firebelly the Greedy fist and make sure you have a magic missile. This is, if you think your opponent might bring a screaming bell. Since you can single it out with shooting it is very nice to drop some mage levels on his Grey Seer before he can do anything (he does get a 4+ ward against your cannon fire after all).

Also, I do not think you need such a large unit of Gnoblars. although I normally love such big units, a unit of 50 gnoblars will hold up 50 slaves just as well as 100 gnoblars do...

Just my two cents anyway!

D...

[Nihmwit]

You NEED more bodies.  The ironguts are a waste, bulls will kill almost as easily, and help you grab more ogres.  If you're worried about the A-bomb regen, put the flaming banner on the Maneaters.

The most terrifying thing for an ogre player in a skaven army is the Warp Lightning Cannon.  A single decent shot will vaporize an entire unit.  You absolutely need multiple Ironblasters for counter-battery fire, otherwise I'd be surprised if you cross the field, especially in a grand army where he can take 4 of them.

the mournfangs are a bit of a gamble.  On the one hand, they're fast and they wreck in close combat.  On the other, Skaven have a ton of stuff that either negates or lowers armor saves. 

I highly, HIGHLY recommend rock eye.  It will let you ID which units have assassins hidden in them, which engineer has the Brass Orb, if he's rocking the Strength 10, d6 wound sword, etc.  If you're going to run sniper maneaters, it will greatly increase their effectiveness by helping you pick worthwhile targets.

Get at least 2 units of 9 bulls, or maybe 3 units of 6 bulls.  MMU works significantly better than deathstar tactics against skaven.  And remember, he can shoot into combats with skaven slaves.

[Darkminion]

Oh and don't forget to bring 6 single Sabretusks....That will show his warmachines and weaponteams!

D...

[MasteroDisaster]

Oh and don't forget to bring 6 single Sabretusks....That will show his warmachines and weaponteams!

D...

Alas you can only field 3 on the little blighters. Rulebook states only 3 of the same special unit can be fielded. So 3 units of 2 would be fine but it's not worth it because panic tests will be called for as soon as the first out of the 2 die and with Sabretusk's Ld being so low it's really not worth it. (This is of course so long as you are playing by standard rules etc)

[Darkminion]

Nope, 3000 and up are the Grand Battle rules and you may field 6 of the same special choice so 6 little kittens is absolutely legal....

D...

[Nihmwit]

My advice is to NOT take sabre tusks. 

With regards to warmachines, the tusk will NEVER have an open charge lane to them unless the player is amazingly incompetent.  Expect his flanks and warmachines to be completely blocked off by slave units.  The WLC is large enough that it can easily see over his own units to fire freely. 

Doomwheels have a tendancy to use sabre tusks as free movement.  With random movement and 360 degree charge arc, and with you not allowed to make charge reactions, doomwheels will frequently charge sabretusks, annihilate them, and then overrun.  Meaning that doomwheel just moved 6d6 inches, and now is either deep into your flank, your back field, or overran into another unit.

Weapon Teams.  IMO, the most likely weapon teams you'll see are warpfire throwers and poison win mortars.  Sure, Sabres should kill them easily enough.  The problem is that the poison wind mortar uses the LOS of it's parent unit, and so is typically fielded BEHIND the main unit.  The Warpfire Throwers can stand and shoot.  It's a template attack, so no need to roll to hit, and it causes multiple wounds.

If you are dead set on sabre tusks, then use them as straight redirectors, and march them as close as you can to enemy units, in the hope that any shots at them will hit his own troops. 

If you want a decent distraction unit, then may I recommend scouting maneaters.  Even here, I'm not sure this would be a good idea though.  Skaven armies typically stretch the length of the board, so you probably won't be able to get on his flanks.  If he DOES have flanks, then that's probably where you'll see the Doomwheels and A-bombs.

[Darkminion]

Nihmwit, I totally diagree with you here. There is never a reason not to take Sabretusks in your army.

With regards to warmachines, the tusk will NEVER have an open charge lane to them unless the player is amazingly incompetent.  Expect his flanks and warmachines to be completely blocked off by slave units.  The WLC is large enough that it can easily see over his own units to fire freely. 

You do not need a direct open charge lane to a warmachine with sabretusks. Simply move them up in a good position. Then the Skaven player will have to deal with them or they move around his units to charge in a following round. Sure, they are easily dealt with but that is the beauty of tusks, every action you force your opponent to react to sabretusks is a winner, whether he shoots them, or reacts through movement, its all good!

Doomwheels have a tendancy to use sabre tusks as free movement.  With random movement and 360 degree charge arc, and with you not allowed to make charge reactions, doomwheels will frequently charge sabretusks, annihilate them, and then overrun.  Meaning that doomwheel just moved 6d6 inches, and now is either deep into your flank, your back field, or overran into another unit.

Why? You choose at what angle the Doomwheel "charges" your sabretusk and thus in what direction he overruns. In my book this is a win also. Not only is he not Zzzzapping at Ogres, I also dictate where the Doomwheel is going letting me countercharge it. And Doomwheels that get charged often die.

Weapon Teams.  IMO, the most likely weapon teams you'll see are warpfire throwers and poison win mortars.  Sure, Sabres should kill them easily enough.  The problem is that the poison wind mortar uses the LOS of it's parent unit, and so is typically fielded BEHIND the main unit.  The Warpfire Throwers can stand and shoot.  It's a template attack, so no need to roll to hit, and it causes multiple wounds.

Poisened Wind Mortars are indeed able to position behind the lines and move and fire, but then again, they are not really scary for Ogres in the first place and as with other warmachines those sabres will still have to be dealt with or they move around your units killing off the backfield.

Warpfire throwers are very scary for ogres and may not move and fire and thus need to be precisely placed. Sabretusks make that a lot harder for the skaven player. and sure, stand and shoot against the charging Sabre, heck, even kill it, I'll just declare another charge after the first with one of the other 5.



Also, Sabretusks can make sure your combat block does not get stuck in with 100 slaveblocks, they can block off a Hellpit Abom from hitting you in the flank, they can clear of annoying ratdarts (5 giant rats in a line), they can keep skitterleaping engineers with doomrockets from your flank, they can suicide charge clanrats with warlock engineers in them to character kill....Hell, even if they do nothing at all, they are purely worth their points just for the deployment drops.

Really, if you cannot find a productive way to include Sabretusks in your lists there is something very wrong...


D...

[Nihmwit]

Again, and even with 6 sabres, there is NO WAY you're going to out-drop a grand skaven army.  Everyone talks about 100 slave tarpits, but you're alot more likely to face half-a-dozen smaller slave formations used as trash drops, flank blocks, and redirectors, IN ADDITION to the tarpits (which may be slaves or clanrats).

Dark, you misunderstood my comment about the warmachines.  I didn't mean you wouldn't have a direct charge lane.  I meant you wouldn't have a charge lane PERIOD, from any angle.  Skaven can drop so many cheap units that can spread across so much space that in all likelihood, you simply will not be able to legally move your sabretusk past the intervening units.

These are my opinions, based on my skaven experience.  I also do not use 'tusks in any of my own armies.  This is because I find players who put too much emphasis on redirector and trash drop use to be fairly easy to beat since I spec my own lists to kill redirectors.  They're effectively free points for me.  It's really amusing when you beat a High Elf player because you killed his 3 great eagles.  As in, those were the only units killed in the entire game.

Don't screw around with a rat player.  Kill his WLCs as fast as you can, with Doomwheels and Abombs next on the list, with your Ironblasters.  For everything else, just slam as many bull squads into him as fast as you can, and/or snipe out characters.

[Darkminion]

I do not misunderstand you my friend, I simply disagree with you. I am a Skavenplayer myself and the way you describe a Skaven deployment he himself would not have any room manouvre himself, placing the whole board with slave drops 1 inch apart. If that is indeed the case he is not a good player.

Also, you do not have to outdeploy him, but having 6 trashdrops (I feel a bit sickened by calling Sabres trashdrops actually) yourself does surely help.

These are my opinions, based on my skaven experience.  I also do not use 'tusks in any of my own armies.  This is because I find players who put too much emphasis on redirector and trash drop use to be fairly easy to beat since I spec my own lists to kill redirectors.  They're effectively free points for me.  It's really amusing when you beat a High Elf player because you killed his 3 great eagles.  As in, those were the only units killed in the entire game.

I would love to play a game against you where you beat me because I use Sabretusks. This does not make any sense to me at all. Did that High Elf player just push his eagles forward, waited for you to kill them and then thought:"Lets hang back here and do nothing?"

I mean, come on, the sabres are used in conjunction with the rest of the army. You mention you spec your list to kill redirectors. That is great for me and it is what I want you to do afterall. I could not give one bit about the points I give up with the sabres. Every cannon, mournfang, maneater, leadbelcher that is killing sabres is not killing Ogres, which soots me fine. 6 sabres cost me 126 points total and they will allway, allways be worth those points.

D...

[Nihmwit]

Oh, cannons never fire at sabres.  they kill cannons and mournfangs.  It comes down to the fact that I play low-drop armies and never try for a charge before 3 turn.  Believe it or not, I consistantly kill an armies redirectors (or at least the one's that I care about) by turn 2.  This gives me 2 turns of maneuver to set up my preferred charges.

As for that HE player, he was very good.  But IBs make short work of eagles, and ogres move faster than elves.  His bolt throwers never managed to kill a unit either, and his archer units where effectively worthless.  I managed to delay the charge of his silver horns (or helms, or whatever they are) until the bottom of turn 5, and it failed to kill the unit or characters in it.  It was the only charge in the game. 

If you're good with redirectors and trash drops, and you're comfortable with your strategy with them, then by all means go for it.  They are very effective. 

I'm just saying that you should NEVER count on them.  Don't use them as a crutch.  Too many times I see people build units and lists that rely on redirectors to protect their main formations.  So, when I kick that crutch out form under them, it effectively destroys their strategies and puts them on the defensive.

[Darkminion]

@Nihmwit, That is the beauty of Sabres, you do not have to count on them, but they never disappoint! But since we are going a bit off topic here, let us just agree to disagree on this topic.

I look forward to have healthy discussions with you in the future! 

D...

[flodhestur]

NOW KISS!

[Nihmwit]

LMAO!!   Always appreciate a different approach. 

But no kiss without dinner!  I'm cheap, but I'm not easy