Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Vampire Counts

[kobahl]

Hello all. Thought to throw in my 2c as a Vamp player. A fully tooled Vamp Lord can give a Tyrant a run for his money. For defense if mounted will have a 2+ 4+ sv and on foot 4+ 4+. If he charges mine has 5 S7 A w/ possible re-rolls to hit and -3 to LD to re-roll to wound. Every unsaved wound will give me another attack. Against RnF he will be murder.

If you see Konrad across from you run! He's a hero choice average protection with just hvy armor and only 2W but he will carve medium sized units into ogre steaks. He has 4A (5 w/ frenzy) at S5 and a sword that gives him an extra wound for every one caused. And then red fury on top of that (+1 attack for every unsaved wound). So worst case he could cause 5 wounds, doubled to 10. Then 10 more attacks(red fury) for a possible 20 more wounds. He can slaughter 10 ogres all by himself......

Watch out for the suicide Thrall. Vamp with Lore of beast, has all the spells and a power scroll. Charges a unit, cast Transformation of Kadon, pretty much guaranteed and IF to boot. So he transforms into mountain chimera with 4D6 A with the possible miscast of a S10 pieplate over your unit. Could be nasty if done at the wrong time or into the flank of a unit.

Some items and spells to be aware of.
1)Helm of command lets whoever is wearing it give his WS to a unit within 12" of him. Basically gives a unit a WS of 6 or 7. Just depends on who's wearing it.

2) Staff of damnation. Let's models within 12" of the holder strike once in the magic phase. If used on a ghoul horde against let say a  3 wide ogre unit it will give them 24 attacks! And that's just in the magic phase....

And one spell that works well with the above combos is Okkams razor. With a Vamp Lord in the area giving the unit LD of 10. This spell will give the unit a S of 10 and used in conjunction with Vanhs dance giving the unit ASF and re-rolls it can be a really deadly combo.

Vahn's dance. Let's the unit move 8" as making a normal move. Can be used to charge a unit this way. Can be used only once for the movement option. If cast on a unit in CC it will give them ASF and re-rolls to hit. It is spamable(cast multiple times) by the same caster as long as he doesn't fail in a casting.

Got to do some other work so that's all for now...

[Wildcard]

Having played against camps twice this weekend may I suggest that any unit of wights is enough with proper support.

That support is a lord stood somewhere else using a helm of commandment while the unit has the banner of the barrows.  For grave guard it should be great weapons, for black knights add in a Wight king bsb with the regen banner and a great weapon.

This can tear throguh even the nastiest ogre deathstar, and certainly grind it out.  Hitting on 2s is not funny when you are S6 and potentially have asf and rerolls from van hels.

Not fun.

[Necrotix]

Just goes to show that even though Ogres got more powerful with 8th they are still unable to stand up to the super-cheese mega combos that the newer lists can put together.

[Komone]

So about to start a mini campaign 1500 with no lords, max casters level 2, heroes can only takes 25points of magic items.

With that a VC player we have has a Horde of ghouls, graveguard with +1 to hit banner and GW, 3 level 2 casters and 30 skeletons and Varghulf.

My lists at the moment have 2 bruisers, a unit of 13 bulls or guts, scraplauncher, trappers, gnoblar block and some more bulls. Main concern is leaking wounds to both ghouls (although I know they will fall) but the evil that is graveguard.

Any advice? First things on my shopping list are a butcher as soon as points grow in army.

K

[Sandals]

It really doesn't seem a fair campaign if he can put out a list like that and the best things in your army are limited by the restrictions.

[catandy]

Blocks of ghouls are sick with all them poisoned attacks.

Ghouls are not that scary. Not for ogres anyway.

Slaugthermasters and butchers are immune to poison.

Either equip a slaugthermaster with Crown of command and bloodcleaver - and solo charge. Thats most likely 12-16 attacks with 4's to hit, 6's to wound - and you get your wound(s) back.  Just remember to keep your BSB close by ;-)

Or put slaugthermaster and butcher(s) up front in a 3*x unit. 2 str 3 attacks is not that scary when poison has no effect.

[rocdocta]

i must disagree with this.

1. ogres have weak or no armour.

2. ghouls have 2 attacks + 1 support. thats 17 poison attacks on a 5 wide front. there are so many spells/items that give ASF and or rerolls to hit that will get a second bite at poison. so 17 poison = about 4 wounds to bulls. 

3. slaughtermaster and CoC and bloodcleaver solo charging into ranked ghouls?! that means that you tarpit a 200 pt unit with your 250 ish point unit. but ogres need buffs so that anchors your army to be within 12 in of the SM combat. which loses the initiative to the enemy. The ghouls also comeback from raising.

4. remember VC are not about straight up fighting. you cant say if i see X i will do A. my solid tourney list has the helm of WS, +4 casting dice, the lord with all shadow spells and the staff of damnation. mind razor gives the ghouls str10 using the lords ld. pls they are now WS7.   

VC are still very strong in 8th. remember 30 grave guard with great weapons all get to attack with the staff of damnation. thats 30 str 6 attacks, hit on 3s...killing blow (but not vs ogres.)

[catandy]

i must disagree with this.

1. ogres have weak or no armour.

2. ghouls have 2 attacks + 1 support. thats 17 poison attacks on a 5 wide front. there are so many spells/items that give ASF and or rerolls to hit that will get a second bite at poison. so 17 poison = about 4 wounds to bulls. 

3. slaughtermaster and CoC and bloodcleaver solo charging into ranked ghouls?! that means that you tarpit a 200 pt unit with your 250 ish point unit. but ogres need buffs so that anchors your army to be within 12 in of the SM combat. which loses the initiative to the enemy. The ghouls also comeback from raising.

4. remember VC are not about straight up fighting. you cant say if i see X i will do A. my solid tourney list has the helm of WS, +4 casting dice, the lord with all shadow spells and the staff of damnation. mind razor gives the ghouls str10 using the lords ld. pls they are now WS7.   

VC are still very strong in 8th. remember 30 grave guard with great weapons all get to attack with the staff of damnation. thats 30 str 6 attacks, hit on 3s...killing blow (but not vs ogres.)

1: Ghouls are naked too and str3? So what?

2: I don't believe my advise was to charge with naked bulls? Reroll to hit doesn't really matter vs Butchers and SM. My point being that immune to poison is one way to stop them.  You can always tarpit and redirect with gnoblars, shoot with scraplaunchers etc. - Hopefully every ogreplayer out there knows these options.

3: solo charging with a SM is an option - don't do it unless you have to - ghouls are easily outmanouvered. A 3x2 with frontage of SM and butchers will beat a unit of ghouls in very short time.

4: I was adressing ghouls. Vampires as an army has tricks - but really - don't fear those ghouls. And honestly - if you ever let a someone get Mindrazor of on a horde unit in close combat with your unit - start weeping. But thats more a general rule than something specific to ghouls or vampires for that matter.

[Bob the Butcher]

There is also the Regen Banner which can make Ghouls difficult to kill.

[rocdocta]

@catandy what i was saying was that the SM hasnt a save. so any damage will get through. reroll to hit always matters as it means more chances to wound from more succesful attacks. I was also saying that committing a SM to attacking ghouls will anchor your army to that points as they cant be buffed if out of 6 or 12 in range.

trying to tarpit the undisputed masters of tarpitting with gnoblars is a risky strategy. you can shoot with scrappies sure. but they will be raised back. Tough 4 means a wound on 5s so even if the entire unit is covered and wounded, thats say 8 ghouls max a template. thats no scatter or misfire. 2 heals and theyare back to full or more.

it always surprises me to hear people say that VC units especially ghouls are easily out maneuvered. I say this as:
Ghoulkin is a standard build and gives all ghouls and characters within a free 8 inch move before the game.

Plus there is the danse spell that gives another 8 inch movement that can be cast by the same caster in the same turn on different units at a very low cost. By the end of turn 1, the ghouls can be 24 inches across the table from the start point if need be. thats why a disco necro costs 55 points and has danse and the book of arkhan if need be for another 35 points.

maybe i have been lucky with my ghouls, but i have found point for point that they are the most effective VC unit.

[catandy]

@Rocdocta

I hear you I'm not saying that you do not have to worry about ghouls. Ghouls are nastier than zombies and skellies - no doubt about that - but ogres have a few tricks to deal with them.

What I'm saying is that I haven't had that many problems with ghouls. If they get too close - I solo charge with SM. Normally I'm close to where I want to be at this point, so the 12" radius suits me fine.

I usually concentrate my fire on the general, BSB and other vamps - ghouls are a bit further down on list of primary targets. But I'll never feed them naked bulls - thats for sure

Using gnoblars to tarpit isn't that risky - you even get some fun whenyou stand & shoot Gnoblars are 2 points a piece, and as far as I remember ghouls are somewhere around 8? Maybe your opponent will make a ghoul factory out of your gnoblars - but who cares they will never make it back to the main event

[Blish]

How do people deal with Ethereal's.

Does the flaming banner count attacks as Magical Attacks?

[Sandals]

Bonecruncha works wonders, and at least one of your characters should always have a Magic Weapon.

[Mercules]

How do people deal with Ethereal's.

Does the flaming banner count attacks as Magical Attacks?

The Flaming Banner makes the attacks of the unit Flaming, not magical.

For Ethereals:
1. Combat Resolution
2. Bonecruncher
3. Characters with magic weapons
4. Yhetees (not as vulnerable against VC as other armies and able to hunt Ethereals in the terrain they like).

[Brork Bonegut]

My only battle against vampire counts was brutal. my opponent's Vampire Lord killed my Tyrant with one swing of his frostblade! I came back (rolling well and cutting his two big units of ghouls with Leadbelchers) and we called it a draw, but I have to hand it to him for putting some weird spell in play that inflicts auto-wounds with no saves on me and then resurecting ghouls equal to the amount of wounds inflicted. but having his Blood Knight's Kastellan getting eaten by the Temple of Skulls three times was great.

[Necrotix]

Hellheart was quite fun against my friend's VC's I know he likes magic and Vampires really need to use it so making him test for a lot of miscasts was good, save it for when he has lots of dice and see back and enjoy the fireworks. I caused two miscasts, he rolled well for both of them so one stopped being a Wizard and the other took an S10 hit. Was even funnier when my Tyrant with Greedy Fist caught another solo Vampire and taught her how to forget spells (I can imagine him chuckling away while punching her in the face lol).

[Xoan]

So about to start a mini campaign 1500 with no lords, max casters level 2, heroes can only takes 25points of magic items.

With that a VC player we have has a Horde of ghouls, graveguard with +1 to hit banner and GW, 3 level 2 casters and 30 skeletons and Varghulf.

My lists at the moment have 2 bruisers, a unit of 13 bulls or guts, scraplauncher, trappers, gnoblar block and some more bulls. Main concern is leaking wounds to both ghouls (although I know they will fall) but the evil that is graveguard.

Any advice? First things on my shopping list are a butcher as soon as points grow in army.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think Ghouls are way overpowered at their points, and are extremely powerful against Ogres. When I watched a lot of master tournaments battle reports via youtube, all of the VC there used a deathstar with killing blow... that would rock us imo hard core.



K

I would recommend not adjusting caster levels and magic item point levels.  The reason I am saying this because some armies have built in abilities that make the army playable in these small point costs.  An Example of this is take pretty much any hero against a Warrior's of Chaos Hero with only 25 points of items.  Heroes from that list are so much more powerful than other heroes it is sick.  Daemons can have gifts which are different than Magic items, and are clarified that way in their rule book.  Another army that would be effected differently would be Dwarfs, which seem to have more magic built into their profile with 75 of runes vs the normal 50 for other heroes.

An issue that comes from this is that people will fill selected out of the pack and penalized for playing certain lists or armies, which seems to be totally against your point for the limitations.

[Ard Boy]

How do you people deal with twin Vargulf's?

[Xoan]

imo whether they charge from behind or flank if they are unsupported they will die.  If they charge with another unit than I would focus as many attacks on the easier to wound unit and let CR pop him.

Edit: fixing a spelling error

[Ard Boy]

Sounds logic however, I only recently started with WHF and my first game ever ( just 3 weeks ago) was against VC.
My opponent had 2 Varghulf's on his flank and they just ate my flank like it was nothing and after I lost a 4 man strong leadbelcher unit and 6 bulls with full command I only just killed I Varghulf(just nearly) while the other was eating his way through my other units.

[huesofblue]

Frostblade clarification: E.g. if a vamp lord with frostblade attacks ogre bulls and deals 2 wounds, does that mean 2 dead ogres, or 1 dead ogre? (2 wounds done to 1 ogre --> dead ogre due to frostblade properties)

[Xoan]

I would say that it would take 4 wounds to kill 2 ogres, but that is purely from a logi point of view, I am also interested on if the book clarifies that or not.

[Necrotix]

When I was playing against the Frostblade we ran it that each wound caused removed a model, he ate through two giants before getting stuck in buffed up Bulls. If someone rams anything Ethereal into the front of a unit and the Frostblade Lord into a flank be prepared for pain.

[The Ultra-Mega Bob]

Edit: IGNORE ME!

[Mercules]

The Frostblade is resolved as needing 4 wounds to kill 2 whole Ogres.

No it isn't.

Magic item description states:

If a model looses one or more wounds from the Frostblade (after saves, etc) they are slain outright and lose all remaining wounds.

Now, this doesn't mean that we apply wounds and when we reach enough to have killed the Ogre the others spill over. This means that if we apply a wound from the Frostblade and it was not saved that model is slain and loses all remaining wounds.
3 wounds goes like this:
Wound 1 - Ogre took wound that was not saved, dead ogre.
Wound 2 - Ogre took wound that was not saved, dead ogre.
Wound 3 - Ogres took wound that was not saved, dead ogre.

It is the same thing as Heroic Killing Blow. You remove whole models for each one. 2 HKBs then 2 unwounded Ogre models are removed. The only time you don't do this is if the attacks are aimed at something that doesn't carry over to other models like Characters and Champions. That is also the reason for the "one or more" wording otherwise people would argue their Lord took 2 wounds and so the Frostblade doesn't trigger.