My take on the Bull vs IG debate

[ThomThomKC]

So after playing for about 6 months now what I first believe to be fact I am starting to question.  Up until now IG's were the choice over bulls without question.  The pro I believed to be important were: ST6 wounds easy and rips though armor, ASL isn't that big of a deal when your IN is 2 anyway, and LD 8.  Now after many play sessions, I have to say what I thought was important or unimportant is very different. 

Starting with ST6.  Its nice certainly, make wounding T4 on 2's and -3 to armor.  However,  ST6 opposed to ST5 seems like a win more condition.  Being that the game system is set up to where you always would no matter the toughness on a 6 added with the fact that armor is hardly important with the amount of ward saves that exist and if they do have armor a -2 either removes the save or greatly hampers it.  As a side note I can't tell you how much it pisses me off to be ASL with ST6 and the unit I'm fighting have IN 1 or 2 with light armor or none at all.

ASL when IN is 2.  IN 2 is still quite low.  Most everything is going ahead of you granted but its more than annoying to be ASL against a unit that is IN 2 especially if they are IN 1.  Plus this is kind of an point that is connected to the ST 6.  One exists because of the other.  Being that my feelings are that ST6 is just win more compared to ST5 and it costs ASL to get there, well ya not so worth it.

Leadership 8.  The difference of rolling leadership at 8 compared to 7 is certainly a BIG difference.  Though as time has gone on I've realized you are forced to run in a giant horde-leadership-BSB-bubble anyway.  So this becomes irrelevant because of that.

As you can see what I thought the pro's of the IG were seem to be pointless or overkill.

Now onto the pros of the bull.

Same armor as the IG with the added parry save.  Its only on a 6 from combat in the front, but it makes a difference.

You probably have noticed how I have kept refrencing ST5 above and not ST4.  That is due to the fact that I'm taking into account of having a lvl 4 Maw SM.  With a lvl 4 you are all but promised the +1 St spell.  A ST5 bull is a powerful force with added durability of the parry save and being 9 points cheaper.  Its hard for me not to want to take the seemingly more efficient unit for a cheaper cost.

Obviously I will need to play with them for a few months to give my final stance, but I know much more now than I did 6 months ago in regards to mechanics of the game, what matters, and the other armies.  From the knowledge I've accumulated, given the correct support I feel the bull is a better choice in most situations.

Thoughts?

[krisharney]

I prefer bulls over IG.  I think that overall, they are better CC forces.  I've had lots of luck - I suppose - with LD rolls that the 1 point diff doesn't bother me.

[Greywulf The Scarred]

Your analysis of pro and cons about IGs and ogres is correct if you compare one to another, but I think that this much debated topic has to be view essentially in comparison with troops from other armies. If my opponent has plenty of armour saves, high initiave or T4 troops then I can't see how ogres are better than IGs. On the other hand if I am facing T3, low initiative 6+AS enemies they would be a little overkilling.

I think we must consider the role of the unit in the army, the army style and also the army dimension. I prefer to have both if I'm running MSU, but if I am looking to fill the 25% of core troops with a single unit and a couple of gnoblar squads I always end up preferring IGs. Anyway, for example, I take ogres If they are to be led by a butcher\SM with Grut's sickle, to minimize the lost, as I would still prefer them if I'm facing big hordes.

On a side note I have to say that I don't tend to rely too much on magic, I hate to see my battle plans change because of low winds of magic...

I think that there is no "yes or not" answer to this question, only "maybe yes or maybe not"

[Genghis Khan]

If ogres are going to fight last because of init 2, then i'm going for max damage.

[MaanNaam]

 

[ThomThomKC]

Haha.  Nice pic.  It's certainly not that I will never take IG's again.  I just feel the are better as specialty units who seek out units where ST6 actually matters opposed to being your core unit which many do.  Having them in combat with ST3 T3 units is just silly and when thats all ya got on the table....

[spriten]

Made me laugh out loud , cheers MaanNaam  Gnoblar incoming!

I field both units, giving me a half decent hammer and anvil with my core units.
I also feel that we need the bodies and "grindability" ( I think I invented a word ) the Bulls provide.

Getting hammers and can openers in our army isn't too hard. On the other hand, the IG can field the banner of dicipline, which is (IMO) mandatory if you don't use a Tyrant.

[theviking]

IG can field the banner of dicipline.

This is the kicker for me, I would have no problems fielding all or mostly bulls if they could get a magic banner. As it is, I want to have a big unit front and center to house my Slaughtermaster and provide Ld9 to my army. Taking a big block of Maneaters cuts too much into special points, isn't any more durable that IG, is more expensive, and I still have to take 25% core on top of that, so Ironguts it is for me.

[MaanNaam]

I personally like to play the entire field.  I will try to find room for ogres, IG and a ME unit with AHW and GWs.
That gives me 3 combat able blocks, and also S4/5/6/7 attacks in my army.  That army backed by a few fireballs can take care of most things out there.

*EDIT: Thanks or the gnob spriten.

[Triddion]

I agree with MaanNaam that variety is the key to a good list. Ogres are good for the reasons listed above but they are also the most resilient to shooting in that they are cheapest (aka more bodies). Ironguts are useful against many elite troop armies with T4 or a high armor save (or both *sigh Chaos Warriors*) and the Leadership 9 over Leadership 8 is huge.

Its funny ThomThomKC, I actually started thinking why you would ever take Ironguts because 13pts just didn't seem reasonable to run them over an Ogre. However, I've come to realize that even with the Stubborn spell and a range of buffing spells, its nice to a have a Leadership you can count on and have a unit/units that can put out hurt with a fluff magic phase.

I've just started looking at running a block of 8 Maneaters as well with AHW (trying to fit a great weapon in there somewhere too) for a boatload of Strength 5 attacks and I3 and WS4.

My most recent list includes 11 Ogres (BSB), 8 Ironguts (SM), 8 ME's and 4 MFC for fighting blocks and is backed up by 4 Leadbelchers, an Ironblaster and a pair of Sabretusks

Just my thoughts,
Triddion

[Beastlord]

You probably have noticed how I have kept refrencing ST5 above and not ST4.  That is due to the fact that I'm taking into account of having a lvl 4 Maw SM.  With a lvl 4 you are all but promised the +1 St spell.  A ST5 bull is a powerful force with added durability of the parry save and being 9 points cheaper.  Its hard for me not to want to take the seemingly more efficient unit for a cheaper cost.

I always run a SM and usually end up with +1 strength but usually this gets miscast as generally I find most opponents know you will be looking at 6 dicing trollguts to make sure you keep beating face. Just never a good idea to compare units off the basis of something that you may not have every game or that can be usually shut down by the enemy without to much problems.

Anyway I run both and the iron guts are just consistent which I appreciate considering the LD problems in the army and really only having to worry about defensive spells rather than hoping to get both offense and defense off every turn helps minimise any issues generally

[Gralph Boarbiter]

Just something that I feel I need to keep repeating:

If you are taking Gut Magic, Bulls get less benefit from Trollguts than Ironguts do.  It's slightly minor, but it's important to remember.

Also, while magic is good, it's not reliable.  I generally try to build a list that will do well without any magic and then count the spells that go off a bonus.  And since Ogres have some of the best magic defense in the game, that's pretty easy to do.

[Beastlord]

Also, while magic is good, it's not reliable.  I generally try to build a list that will do well without any magic and then count the spells that go off a bonus.  And since Ogres have some of the best magic defense in the game, that's pretty easy to do.

Not sure which side of the fence you are on but obviously trollguts is a little more useful on the ironguts, not by much though compared to how important the extra strength is for helping the ogres deal with armour and high toughness. I feel be able to screen units walking up to combat with redirect its and chaff is a better pay off then the hope that I am either
A ) going against someone with ASL so my obtains 2 can let me go first
B ) That of I end up in a bad combat ok relying on a spell to get me out.

There's nothing you ever feel to wary about tossing your ironguts into knowing they will get some wounds on it whereas hoping for a few 6's from your ogres can be spooky. However I think the best advice is to take both. The ogres are a brilliant anvil in that you can have a shit load (compared to the rest of the book) to hold up a unit till the ironguts can hammer through a unit then swing back round to stop the grind and start mincing up

[Johnny-Crass]

You will wish you kept your Ironguts when you run into screamer lists or Empires new Wall of Steel.... Just sayin

[Eg Giant-tripper]

I've become an Ironguts man meself. In lower points games, Ogres are significantly more cost-effective and their extra durability comes in handy when there aren't as many characters around to absorb the damage that heads their way. At 2000pts and higher though, when the enemy starts bringing in his tougher cookies, the extra reliability of the 'Guts (S6 hurts pretty much everything under the sun consistently) wins through.

[markus]

I used to do all ironguts but I couldnt simply get enough bodies on there to not be outmaneuvered(damn brettonians) though they do help a lot against those high T or high SV units(im looking at you brettonians and WoC). Ogres on the other can be a bit reliant on getting magic buffs to kill things, oh so slightly more survivable and lets not forget cheaper. I feel a combination of both would be best just so you can get the best of both worlds. I actually did end up with a 2500pt list with ogres and guts which I posted on here...

http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=24792.0

[Justinr]

You mention ironguts vs ogres with +1 strength from the spell. Thus, your basic premise is ironguts "naked" vs a unit of ogres with a single buff spell cast on them. The ogres require a spell to be cast on them in order for them to have only -1ST compared to the ironguts.

Let's give the ironguts the same benefit of the doubt and also give them a spell. let's give them +1 toughness spell. So now we have ogres with ST5 and T4 vs ironguts with ST6 and T5.

Also, I don't know about you but I don't give either ogres or ironguts much of a chance of surviving a toe-to-toe fight with any decent unit unless you can get trollguts up on the unit. 4+ regen (assuming the enemy does not have flaming attacks) can't be used in conjunction with a parry or ward save, so both units would get their armour save of 5+, possibly modified, then 4+ regen.

I personally think the ironguts are a more useful, powerful, unit, but also agree that both have their place. I'm currently running a 2400 list with 10 ironguts with SM and BSB and 7 ogres with firebelly. Though I did get the chance on the weekend to see just how awesome ST6 ironguts with "flaming sword of rhuin" cast on them were against T3 skaven - autowounding impact hits and hits, anyone?

[Frost Jotun]

Imo Ogres should ignore ASL from GWs. I mean they get the same S bonus as a puny human, but still get the same swingspeed. And Ogres have low I anyway. 

[Offswitch]

Yeah the ogre's should get three times the attacks of a human or something.....

[dirtycrabcakes]

Also, I don't know about you but I don't give either ogres or ironguts much of a chance of surviving a toe-to-toe fight with any decent unit unless you can get trollguts up on the unit. 4+ regen (assuming the enemy does not have flaming attacks) can't be used in conjunction with a parry or ward save, so both units would get their armour save of 5+, possibly modified, then 4+ regen.

Well, I haven't actually successfully cast Trollguts in about... oh, I don't know... the past 15 games or so and my ironguts, bulls, whatever, do quite fine. It's all about, positioning, getting the right match-up, etc.

But really, there are probably close to 10 available spells that are very useful to ogres in combat, some of which are (IMO) better than trollguts (and in some situations, much better).

But either way, like Gralph said... you can't rely on magic. And really, you can't add magic to the discussion, because then you have to start discussing all of the other potential variables, like terrain, supporting units, scenario, how much coffee you've had to drink that day, etc...

[CmdrLaw]

You probably have noticed how I have kept refrencing ST5 above and not ST4.  That is due to the fact that I'm taking into account of having a lvl 4 Maw SM.  With a lvl 4 you are all but promised the +1 St spell.
Thoughts?

This is frankly ridiculous, you might not be taking a lvl 4 Maw, you might not roll Trollguts or Bullgorger but maybe get 1 a double and can only select 1? You might not make the casting or it just gets dispelled or scrolled. I know it's a high priority dispel target in the games I have played.

The fact is the bulls are STR 4. And a very good chance they will stay STR 4.

My current plan is the Ironguts with tough characters at the front (The STR 6 supporting attacks are the important bit) and a support naked bulls unit which is an excellent prospect for Wildform or bullgorger.

[frankanelli]

Ironguts ability to take a magic banner is also a huge plus, frees up the BSB to take a banner that isnt the +1ld flag or lets him take a few good items.  I pretty much play only big games so i have enough points to take both, and i've found that i am most comfortable with some of each rather than exclusivly one.

[Justinr]

Also, I don't know about you but I don't give either ogres or ironguts much of a chance of surviving a toe-to-toe fight with any decent unit unless you can get trollguts up on the unit. 4+ regen (assuming the enemy does not have flaming attacks) can't be used in conjunction with a parry or ward save, so both units would get their armour save of 5+, possibly modified, then 4+ regen.

Well, I haven't actually successfully cast Trollguts in about... oh, I don't know... the past 15 games or so and my ironguts, bulls, whatever, do quite fine. It's all about, positioning, getting the right match-up, etc.

But really, there are probably close to 10 available spells that are very useful to ogres in combat, some of which are (IMO) better than trollguts (and in some situations, much better).

But either way, like Gralph said... you can't rely on magic. And really, you can't add magic to the discussion, because then you have to start discussing all of the other potential variables, like terrain, supporting units, scenario, how much coffee you've had to drink that day, etc...

I didn't add magic to the discussion. The original post here that everyone is responding to added magic to the discussion. Given the base supposition that I was responding to included magic as part of the analysis, me NOT including magic in my response would be fundamentally flawed.

[rocdocta]

i used to be an IG guy but since 8th ed popped up, its bulls all the way for me. more incoming attacks means that more bodies are required to get the job done. 1/3 more bodies means more attacks. plus vs enemy GWs they strike first. my bulls have annihilated minotaur GW units as they go first. really handy vs low tough units like chaos marauders where S6 is just over kill.

vs HE with ASF you appreciate the guys that can now swing. 10 IGs = about 13 bulls. if you lose 2 bodies to shooting and magic and then 4 bodies to attacks the IG unit will only hit back with about 12 attacks = 6 hits = 5 wounds done. But the bulls have 21 attacks = 10 hit = 6 wounds done.

The next turn will see the IGs either dead or removed from combat effectiveness. whereas the bulls can lose another 4 and still have 5 bodies left to have 15 attacks.

For me numbers count more than quality. maybe one small unit of 6 IG with a flaming banner to deal with monsters is needed.

[Zippy Wonderdog]

Against low toughness low armour troops the Bulls probably beat out the Ironguts, but against high armour tough troops like chaos warriors you want the killing power of the Ironguts. Any buffs putting Bulls on par with the Ironguts are to be discounted as you cannot guarantee that buff will be up when you need it. In any case it just makes the Ironguts all the more appealing with strength 7.  In addition there is also the fact the fact that Ironguts can take magic banners, not sure if its still the one unit restriction still though. Regardless, Dragonhide and the Banner of Discipline are important banners that shouldn't be dismissed.
Though this is not all that could be said, because you could take a minimum Irongut unit and have it hang about the rear of a Bullstar lending it leadership 9 from the Slaughtermaster, because you aren't taking a Tyrant if you are taking Mournfangs and a Tyrant would be leading the Bullstar anyway.