Author Topic: Dealing with a puking horde of trolls. Thoughts? (Read 1021 times)

Wyzr · « **on:** Apr 30, 2012, 05:20:27 PM »

Just lost a 2500 game against o&g with an army fielding a Gutbus, 2 IBs and mournfang-with-dragonhide combo, among other things. Guy fielded a horde of 18 trolls and a unit of 50 black orcs with GW, plus other stuff.

I managed to redirect the black orcs the whole game, but those trolls would just come up and puke at my ironguts. That's 15 autohit s6 attacks, no armor saves, killing 3-5 guts a turn! Any suggestions on how you would deal with something like that?

Some stuff i tried: couldn't redirect it well, because it moved forward with two nghtgob units filled with fanatics. Any redirectors i brought up were smashed aside (but at least the fanatics held him up a turn). The IB had their hands full killing chariots, pumpwagons and doomdivers. In the end, i just didnt have enough counters to throw at him.

sitaavanu · « **Reply #1 on:** Apr 30, 2012, 06:06:52 PM »

Firebelly x2 or flaming banner.

without altering your list TOO Much what you could do is this

Change the unit of 4 Fangs into 2x2
give each a muso and 1 a banner with the flamming standard.

Run the flamming standard into the flank of the trolls and the guts into the front of it.

At this point you could simply let the flaming attacks strip the regen and your guts go to town on trolls.

OR

don't use a gutbus and just dance around his trolls all game. Snipereaters/death to get rid of his general and watch them fail their ld5(?) stupidity test every round.

Ironclad Ogre · « **Reply #2 on:** Apr 30, 2012, 08:25:19 PM »

In your post you mention their puke is strength 6,i'm almost positive its made at their base strength of 5.Also as a recommendation do what I do,field a whole from rank of toughness 5 characters and try to get plus 1 toughness or regeneration off.Then be sure to have a flaming banner and some great weapons and your good.

Cleavelander · « **Reply #3 on:** Apr 30, 2012, 08:27:31 PM »

I think that chaffing the trolls and slamming the black orcs would have been a better option.

The benefit of a firebelly is manifest. A lore of death butcher would also help, particularly if you can manage purple sun or the -3 LD spell.

Mercules · « **Reply #4 on:** Apr 30, 2012, 08:34:20 PM »

When you say Gutbus are you talking 8-12 Guts with Chracters or a full blown IG horde setup? Because one big unit you don't want to fight two of his is not going to work well.

Shadowlord · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2012, 11:17:02 AM »

If you have a Guthorde with flaming banner and you get the charge off, I do not see how the troll even can stand a chance when they have to allocate quite a few attacks against Chars and champ.

Nor Blorcs for that matter.

Also Sabtusks are your friends, especially against O&G.

Necrotix · « **Reply #6 on:** May 01, 2012, 12:13:23 PM »

Also potential (not saying this is the sane thing to do) is to plop a flaming banner BSB into a unit of Leadbelchers, or if you're lucky enough to get Flaming Sword on your Firebelly apply it Leadbelchers or Ironblaster. If going the BSB in LBs route I'd make sure you have another unit for him to go hide in before combat happens.

Wildcard · « **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2012, 12:44:17 PM »

double firebelly and double ironblaster. flaming sword the ironblaster. deploy ironblasters to get flank shots. step firebellies to the sides of the unit and when they finish fireballing it, they can also breathe fire onto the trolls (this works as a good setup for teh ironblasters if you dont get flaming sword off too as it strips regen for teh shooting phase.

MaanNaam · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:10:39 PM »

Pshh, don't listen to these people!

All you need is a single firebelly in a bunch of guts. The firebelly is I2 and the trolls I1, strip their regen with firebelly and bash *away.

* note: You will probably lose a big chunk of your guts as well, but 5 at most with 15 vomits. He will lose quite a few more trolls.

I am a firm believer that ALL problems can be fixed by the application of firebellies and ironguts. I'm positive there is some way to even cure world hunger if they are used right.

Firebellies and Ironguts didn't solve your problem? Then You simply didn't use enough of them.

Hedstone · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2012, 03:05:18 PM »

Quote from: Wildcard on May 01, 2012, 12:44:17 PM

double firebelly and double ironblaster. flaming sword the ironblaster. deploy ironblasters to get flank shots. step firebellies to the sides of the unit and when they finish fireballing it, they can also breathe fire onto the trolls (this works as a good setup for teh ironblasters if you dont get flaming sword off too as it strips regen for teh shooting phase.

I believe they it only strips regen for that phase.. so fire in magic phase will not strip regen during shooting phase?

Acuteapathy · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2012, 03:33:43 PM »

It does indeed only strip regen for the current phase.

sitaavanu · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2012, 03:39:21 PM »

He said "breathe fire onto the trolls", which you do in the shooting phase.

Wyzr · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2012, 04:19:12 PM »

Lots of useful advice-- thanks guys!

Yeah, i'dve used a firebelly, except i haven't bought one yet (ordering takes forever where i am), and so wasn't able to field it.

The turning point of the battle was when my mournfangs got a charge in the trolls' flank - but the main charge from the front by my guts with a flame banner overrunning a single troll redirector -- was blocked by an ironblaster. They couldn't close the door, and the trolls were already engaged so they couln' close either. Charge failed, leaving my mournfangs stuck in combat, and then rear charged by a goblin hrde with gobbo characters.

I really think that multicharge with a flaming unit and the dragonhide mournfangs would've torn right through that troll horde. But hey, them's the breaks.

Trouble with simply running up an IG horde unsupported is yeah, they'll probably win, but because of ASL with the GWs, i'll take quite a few wounds before they get to attack. 15 s5 autohits average about 10 wounds, and my opponent's dice were on fire that night.

Battle report should soon be up soon on my thread http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=24382.0
Can't wait for the rematch!

Hedstone · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2012, 05:41:59 PM »

Quote from: sitaavanu on May 01, 2012, 03:39:21 PM

He said "breathe fire onto the trolls", which you do in the shooting phase.

Yeah sorry, misunderstood. I thought he was referring to the spell

nells · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2012, 08:19:44 PM »

Because of their low Initiative and the fact they are multi-wounded monstrous infantry, the maw spell is actually pretty good against them. Especially if you can throw a fireball at them first with a firebelly or ruby ring..

Talgronth · « **Reply #15 on:** May 01, 2012, 08:54:39 PM »

The firebelly also har flaming attack on his impact hit, So he can take away their reg before any hits are delt.

Zato Oni · « **Reply #16 on:** May 03, 2012, 07:35:53 AM »

Hello.
I play a Kholek and Throgg, dragon ogre and troll army. While a troll horde is a horrible sight to behold, the vomit isn't. Troll's vomit works like this: "Each Troll model in base contact with the enemy model inflicts one automatic Strength 5 hit with no armor saves allowed." (Warriors of Chaos book pg. 60) Additionally, you must remember that troops in the second or third rank make "supporting attacks". Models making a supporting attack are NOT in base contact. (He may argue that the rules say the entire unit can vomit. That's fine and all, but only the one's in base contact can hit an opponent!

) Also, models making supporting attacks do not benefit from any special attacks that they would otherwise be able to use. So that 18 strong Troll horde, if ranked 6x3, only gets six vomit attacks. That's why when I horde Trolls, I put Throgg in the front to boost the vomit damage!

So go forth with your Firebelly and rip those Trolls apart with your Ironguts! Remember, your opponent may just not be familiar with the rules and could be operating in ignorance. Be polite when you call him on the bull$#!+.

MaanNaam · « **Reply #17 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:45:04 AM »

On my phone right now so can't check it but I'm pretty sure the O&G FAQ said trolls CAN vomit as supporting attacks, that means he would indeed get 18 vomit attacks in horde formation.

Wyzr · « **Reply #18 on:** May 03, 2012, 12:00:44 PM »

I just looked at the o&f faq (1.1) and there's nothing there about allowing vomits as supporting attacks.

I don't have a copy of the orcs book but Google-fu, however, has led me to several arguments in other forums about that argue for troll vomit as supporting attacks:

-the o&g book trolls don't have the "must be in base contact" rule
-according to BRB, under "supporting attack", models can make "a single attack, regardless of the number of attacks on his profile, or any Bonus attacks he might be entitled to." A vomit is not a bonus attack, as it replaces normal attacks instead of adding. Therefore the supporting attack rule applies.

I'd just like to have this cleared up. If i'm going to argue against it with my friend, i'd rather do it in a way that doesn't devolve into a long rules-lawyering argument. Is there any clear-cut solution for this?

kobahl · « **Reply #19 on:** May 03, 2012, 12:09:15 PM »

Was just checking the FAQ myself.. I don't have the O&G book with me but if is does not say that you have to be in B2B contact to vomit then I see no argument against vomiting from 2ns and 3rd ranks. You are exchanging your normal attacks for a vomit attack. Vomit away........

If it is worded differently in the WoC book that they have to be in B2B contact then they have to be in B2B contact. Not much to argue about.

Gralph Boarbiter · « **Reply #20 on:** May 03, 2012, 01:39:03 PM »

Frankly, with my Ironguts, I am far more worried about three attacks hitting on a 4 than a single auto-hit. It's hard for me to justify using the vomit in that situation at all.

At least one Firebelly is on my list of auto-includes due to all the regeneration floating around, and with him, a Troll horde is far less scary. Throw in Trollguts for irony value and you've got the makings of a very easy matchup.

Zato Oni · « **Reply #21 on:** May 03, 2012, 02:44:36 PM »

Well, I didn't realize this was such a debate question! I'm a RAW kind of guy, because I've played with some really anal Warhammer people (that sentence doesn't sound quite right... ). In fun pick up games with friends, they would probably allow the multi-rank vomit as it does appear allowable via the O&G book. My Trolls really only vomit on 1+, 2+, and 3+ armor save units. As mentioned by Boarbiter, it's not what I would choose to use on Ogres.

Wyzr · « **Reply #22 on:** May 03, 2012, 03:42:28 PM »

No worries man.

We're also playing RAW at the moment, as we're just starting out with 8th ed and so are not toally familiar with hw everything is supposed to work yet. Just wanted to have some rules to back me up if i were going to tell my friend that he can't have his vomit tsunami(he was so proud of it too).

Since it looks like he can, well, i'll need to find ways to neutralize it.

ShootingPhase · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2012, 03:46:10 PM »

A fat block of Maneaters with the flaming banner will trash those trolls.

Alanir · « **Reply #24 on:** May 03, 2012, 05:16:41 PM »

Just so that this is here -

"Trolls allowed to make supporting attacks can make ä vomit attack." Pg. 57, O&G

Aside from that, yeah, Firebelly + Mournfang on a dual charge should do the trick. Potion of Speed if you are worried about rolling a one for the FB's impact hit.

As far as combo charges go, movement is simultaneous, so I believe you would have gotten the opponent to close the door first, but I may be mistaken.

Good luck, and if the Troll horde continues to give you problems, I might be picking up 6 boxes =)