Author Topic: Why go Stubborn? (Read 2869 times)

Darkminion · « **on:** Apr 20, 2012, 07:21:08 AM »

Friends,

I read a lot about people that put Crowns of Command and Stubborn abilities to their maneaters etc. Why is that? The reason I ask is that in my own experience I never (for my main blocks) have use for it.

I run a block of 10 Ironguts with SM and BsB and this block simply does not loose combat and thus has no use for stubborn.

In my opinion, stubborn only helps if you plan on loosing combats and keep enemy units in place. But why would you want to loose combat with your main blocks?

D...

Scarr, Eating Cookies · « **Reply #1 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 07:29:50 AM »

There are situations where you can get units in your flank. Since you don't have many ranks, having Stubborn is good for those situations where this happens. Stubborn makes you able to whittle down every unit in the game.

MaanNaam · « **Reply #2 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 07:34:53 AM »

Crown of command if just in case you fluff a CC phase with the unit. It's 35 points to make sure your unit stays there. Every once in a while my main unit (or my ME unit) will simply decide that now is not the time for fighting and then they miss like 70% of their attacks (hitting on 4's). If that happens and you don't have stubborn then your 400+ points unit will run like little girls (really big little girls).

It's more a precaution for when the Dice-gods hate you, then you can simply flip them off while waving a crown in their faces

.

I run stubborn on my MEs because when I take MEs I target them at the most extreme areas of the board and they usually end up in combat with 2-3 units. Even though I might win the first few combats, I'll definitely take casualties. The stubborn makes sure my opponent has to kill every single last maneater before he can move on to other units. That gives me tons of time to bash the rest of his army in and line up support charges for my MEs.

Atleast those are my reasons for running stubborn and crown.

Darkminion · « **Reply #3 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 07:50:41 AM »

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

The thing is I really do not see the need to protect from flankcharges in this manner. I have multiple units of Gnoblars and Sabretusks to prevent this from happening against a big block enemy unit. If a smaller unit slips through, I can still make way with my heavily protected characters to nullify wounds on my unit and thus win combat.

Altough it is only 35 points, I feel I really need those points on my characters. Besides that I make sure I dictate the game in the movement phase so that it is my choice where and when combat takes place.

@Maannaam, I understand the use on maneaters if you choose to use them in that way.

Nicholas Bies · « **Reply #4 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 08:17:18 AM »

How competitive is your gaming? How skilled are your opponents? How many points do you play?

Fact is every unit will loose combat at some point casting stubborn, giving stubborn items to characters etc. is to negate these unforeseen circumstances.

As mentioned one day you may roll atrociously, one day you may run into a Chosenstar, a nice big nasty unit of Blood Knights, a unit of greatswords with halberd detachment in your flank. The loss of your nice big unit of Ironguts will hurt your army and sabertusks/gnoblars won't stop them. However being stubborn ld7-8 +BSB re-roll means you get a second chance, and hell you may be able to even counter-charge with other untis into the enemy flank

MaanNaam · « **Reply #5 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 08:22:12 AM »

Quote from: Darkminion on Apr 20, 2012, 07:50:41 AM

@Maannaam, I understand the use on maneaters if you choose to use them in that way.

The thing is when I don't run MEs I use my IG block with BSB (with crown) that way. The only combat my BSB ever see is when he is making support attacks. The enemy has to kill most of my IG block before they can kill my BSB, and when the enemy challenges me I simply refuse. I'd rather lose/swap 3 attacks from my bruiser than have the enemy kill him in a challenge because he is only wearing a shiny crown.

He can always just strike at my champ in cc but usually my opponent's characters will do much more damage when just hitting RnF (and a lot of people seem to forget in the heat of things that they can strike at the champ in cc). My BSB is always one of my last models to go down when I lose a game, and then usually in turn 5/6.

Gralph Boarbiter · « **Reply #6 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 10:49:28 AM »

Stubborn is dice insurance, effectively. And when you're taking a 1500+ point unit like I do, insurance isn't a bad idea.

I fully admit that I don't take the Crown, but I do take Spinemarrow and cast it before entering a combat that I'm unsure of, or if I think that I will position myself to be multi-charged or the like.

If you have the points, it's fully worth it. If you have to make a small concession for it, it's still worth it. I just plain don't have the points, period.

dirtycrabcakes · « **Reply #7 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 12:28:39 PM »

Since I pretty much always bunker by BSB in the second rank, I almost always give him the crown and something like the gold sigil sword.

Wildcard · « **Reply #8 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 01:24:34 PM »

I used to carry the crown for all the reasons given above.

I no longer bother because my irongut block does not lose combat.

I no longer need the insurance as I trust the block to do what it has been tasked to do in a game - wether that is stamping on lesser unit, hiding to protect points, or being a tarpit.

Darkminion · « **Reply #9 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 01:59:07 PM »

Same for me. My Ironguts simply do not loose combat. Also, I do not want to bunker my BsB away in the second rank. I want him in the front taking the hits off from the easily wounded Ironguts. Same goes for my Slaughtermaster.

Quote from: Nicholas Bies on Apr 20, 2012, 08:17:18 AM

As mentioned one day you may roll atrociously, one day you may run into a Chosenstar, a nice big nasty unit of Blood Knights, a unit of greatswords with halberd detachment in your flank. The loss of your nice big unit of Ironguts will hurt your army and sabertusks/gnoblars won't stop them. However being stubborn ld7-8 +BSB re-roll means you get a second chance, and hell you may be able to even counter-charge with other untis into the enemy flank

I have faced many horrible units, stars and hordes. the goal of my sabretusks and gnoblars is not to stop them, but to get them in the position that is favorable for me.

D...

sitaavanu · « **Reply #10 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 02:28:13 PM »

I'm basically in the same boat as Wildcard on this one though my reasons are a little different.

I used to view stubborn as the MUST HAVE item of ogres, however other items have replaced that.

as such I almost never find myself with the points/allotment to use the crown.

Morpheus · « **Reply #11 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 03:54:38 PM »

One of my main opponents is an empire player, well actually he is a DOW player but we use empire rules now with home rules for the pike based on the last official rules for them. He always makes me do the charges as he gets 4 ranks of attacks with +1S when charged. Often he will cast Birona's Timewarp giving them double attacks and ASF(and with higher I rerolls on the To Hit)... 80 rerolling attacks at strength 4 (nullifing light armour save) can cause a world of hurt, I take the stubborn for that reason.

sitaavanu · « **Reply #12 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 03:57:53 PM »

supporting attacks only get 1 attack reguardless of how many attacks the model has. So it is 50 attacks with rerolls to hit.

Darkminion · « **Reply #13 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 04:40:43 PM »

Quote from: Morpheus on Apr 20, 2012, 03:54:38 PM

One of my main opponents is an empire player, well actually he is a DOW player but we use empire rules now with home rules for the pike based on the last official rules for them. He always makes me do the charges as he gets 4 ranks of attacks with +1S when charged. Often he will cast Birona's Timewarp giving them double attacks and ASF(and with higher I rerolls on the To Hit)... 80 rerolling attacks at strength 4 (nullifing light armour save) can cause a world of hurt, I take the stubborn for that reason.

Indeed, it is 50 then, but even then...

First if he waits for you to make the charge with a unit that does not do anything else but waiting for a charge, use this to your advantige and set up properly. Also, since it is your turn, he must have gotten that spell of in his previous turn so you have the choice to charge or not. If you do not charge he has wasted his powerdice. Again, use that to your advantige.

But even so, I would still charge in and slaughter them I think. He has to allocate most of his attacks between my Slaughtermaster, BsB and Champion before he starts rolling dice. Even if I did not get any spells off (+1T or regen), even then I am confident in winning this combat. The Slaughtermaster and BsB are not scared of s4 hits and my champ, well thats only three wounds if he succeeds in killing him.

D...

Wildcard · « **Reply #14 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 04:50:36 PM »

Quote from: sitaavanu on Apr 20, 2012, 02:28:13 PM

I'm basically in the same boat as Wildcard on this one though my reasons are a little different.

I used to view stubborn as the MUST HAVE item of ogres, however other items have replaced that.

as such I almost never find myself with the points/allotment to use the crown.

Not that different, I too couldn't find space for a crown without specifically taking an extra character to carry it.

MaanNaam · « **Reply #15 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 05:37:36 PM »

The crown simply saved me from too many loses for me to simply leave it out. I'll easily find 35 points somewhere for it on a character.

It's like a lucky charm that actually works for me, so any time I'm playing a little serious it will definitely be in my list.
I've had too many games that could go either way by turn 4 and the crown saved me a few times from touch and go games like that.

Gutlord Inquisitor · « **Reply #16 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 06:34:41 PM »

The line of reasoning that stubborn is a waste of points because you don't want to be losing combat is one that doesn't hold a lot of weight for me. It's a tiny investment of points in order to have a huge safety net. Competitively I run a deathstar and I've had that unit lose combat by double digits plenty of times, getting hit in the flank by squig horde or in the rear by a minobus. Critically I need to hold for that first turn before my characters can get stuck in and win the day.

Now, we do have a sig spell that gives stubborn so there's that and with two gut casters you can probably push it through, so I'm not sure Ogres really need it as much as others but I still don't leave home without it.

rothgar13 · « **Reply #17 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 06:44:20 PM »

Agreed - it's a small price to pay for a huge increase in tactical flexibility. You can gamble a lot more with a unit that isn't likely to run, and you also don't have to fear getting out-maneuvered and having a load of static CR dropped on you.

Flim Flam · « **Reply #18 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 06:59:29 PM »

Crown on a BSB is much better protection then a 4 + ward. If the unit runs away the BSB is dead no matter what, so it's a great insurance item.

Wildcard · « **Reply #19 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 07:03:27 PM »

I don't fear those anyway, and I don't get myself in positions where bad things like those described happen.

Having the crown does not make you more tactically flexible. Tactical flexibility is a mindset. You might be at a stage where having your stubborn training wheels on allows you to enter that mindset. I've just dropped the training wheels out.

Crown doesn't stop a bsb being killed, btw, a 4+ ward does....not that I use either.

Gutlord Inquisitor · « **Reply #20 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 07:07:02 PM »

If you can do that, Wildcard, then props to you but in my experience, no matter how clever your tactics sooner or later you get yourself in a pickle and have to roll the dice and hope! The mino-bus incident I just described was a good example of why you need the stubborn crown just for when the dice go south on you.

I was playing beastmen, running a deathstar with 3 characters and 9 bulls. I tied up his minotaur deathstar with chaff, pushing my ogrebus through his lines to get to the bunker with all the wizards near the herdstone. His minobus turned around. I knew I had the charge on his bunker unit, and it would allow me to push off the board with an over-run, away from the minobus. I hit the bunker unit and massacred the unit down to only two members remaining. Absolute carnage and I was feeling pretty good. But of course, those last two gors roll snake eyes on their break test as my eyes widen in panic* - not only can I not avoid the minotaur charge (and these guys were high on blood and rocking something like +4 attacks each) into the rear of my unit, but my characters are all stuck next to these two chumps and unable to make way! The minos charged in and ... well, it wasn't pretty. 7 dead ogres, including my champion. Stubborn Crown to the rescue, my characters held, next turn reformed and murdered the minos, including critically their Stubborn Crown guy, breaking the minos and running them down.

I've even been contemplating a double-death star build. One deathstar with three characters based in a unit of bulls (possibly a horde) with the Stubborn Crown, a second deathstar build around maneaters with stubborn. It's a stubborn party!

*One other thing that made this noteworthy was my opponent was cool as a cucumber. He throws snake eyes with no re-roll like it's nothing, no shouts or whoops or even a raised eyebrow. I'm standing there stuttering and he carries on like he expected nothing less ...

rothgar13 · « **Reply #21 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 07:08:46 PM »

The way I see it, if you're not running into situations where you're glad to have Stubborn, your competition isn't tough enough. People WILL be able to put you in a bad spot at least once in a while, and having that item to bail you out is critical.

Wildcard · « **Reply #22 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 07:18:15 PM »

And yep, I've been in those situations. An enemy unit holds on snake eyes....a re-rollable leadership test on a 9 is failed sending a flank-protecting unit running, etc. And suddenly all your best laid plans are for naught. No one wins every game.

Dice do happen....but is it going to happen often enough, and in combat, to make the crown a 1+ choice? No.

Probability is what it is.

@rothgar: I'll be sure to inform all my other top-table opponents that they need to buck their ideas up and play better

. If I desperatly need stubborn I've been outplayed or outlucked...or both. But if things are that desperate, then I can spinemarrow with IF. And if you think those odds are bad on casting that on 6 dice, then review my comments on probability

Frankly though, I don't get outplayed that often. Maybe I will next game...

rothgar13 · « **Reply #23 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 07:21:15 PM »

That's exactly what I mean. Sometimes you get outplayed, sometimes you get outlucked. It's nice to have that item to essentially give you a do-over. Though I will admit that 6-dicing Spinemarrow will get you a similar result, though it is a bit riskier. I'm not advocating the Crown as a must have given that we have access to Spinemarrow, but I think long and hard before I decide to not include it.

grey templar · « **Reply #24 on:** Apr 20, 2012, 07:23:24 PM »

Part of player skill is having a backup plan when things go bad.

And ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure so to speak.