Author Topic: Redirectors.. Sabretusks .. cheesy? (Read 1123 times)

Hedstone · « **on:** Feb 17, 2012, 01:54:43 PM »

.. i am chalking this up to frustration but last night someone accused using sabre-tusks as re-directors as being "cheesy". It's certainly a strategy any army can use although it's a little easier with a single model unit.. but "cheesy"?

I dont play in ANY external circles aside from our group but following the boards for several races, i never got the impression that re-directors were "cheesy"..

Can anyone clarify this for me? It's a friendly game so i dont want to use "cheese"

danielking4812 · « **Reply #1 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 01:58:18 PM »

what does "cheesy" mean?

Ardecay · « **Reply #2 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 01:59:37 PM »

I don't know about all armies, but I know that Skaven have a similar option take redirector Rat Darts, even falling into the Core section. however, calling the use of redirectors cheesy? I wouldn't go that far.
It is just a way to make good use of one of the nices the ogre book has atm. IMO we also need them to be able to counter some of the other armies tactics.

Draaka · « **Reply #3 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 02:00:51 PM »

Sounds to me that guy was just trying to vent, as you say almost all armies have redirectors of one sort or another, they are a universal tactical facet of the game. He had the option not to charge them, he had the option to restrain the overrun.

@Danielking Cheesy/Beardy/IMBA all mean overpowered or unfun because of a power level imbalance.

Scarr, Eating Cookies · « **Reply #4 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 02:04:23 PM »

Yes they are cheesy. In my last game one of my Sabertusks took out an Eagle and two Repeater Bolt Throwers on his own. That's over 11 times his cost!

But they are still a pretty essential part of the game. Most armies have a type of "chaff" to do these things. Some armies don't have that high quality or cheapness on them, but they are there none the less.

Hedstone · « **Reply #5 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 02:06:20 PM »

Quote from: Draaka on Feb 17, 2012, 02:00:51 PM

Sounds to me that guy was just trying to vent, as you say almost all armies have redirectors of one sort or another, they are a universal tactical facet of the game. He had the option not to charge them, he had the option to restrain the overrun.

@Danielking Cheesy/Beardy/IMBA all mean overpowered or unfun because of a power level imbalance.

Well i used it on a guy who has been bullying the battlefield with his Khorne Chaos.. so.. no restraint for him, hah

Hedstone · « **Reply #6 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 02:08:01 PM »

Quote from: Scarr, Eating Cookies on Feb 17, 2012, 02:04:23 PM

Yes they are cheesy. In my last game one of my Sabertusks took out an Eagle and two Repeater Bolt Throwers on his own. That's over 11 times his cost!

But they are still a pretty essential part of the game. Most armies have a type of "chaff" to do these things. Some armies don't have that high quality or cheapness on them, but they are there none the less.

Forget the unit for the moment, i'm more talking about the act of re-directing.. and i think you got a little lucky there taking all that out with a single sabretusk. just mho

Scarr, Eating Cookies · « **Reply #7 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 02:13:05 PM »

Quote from: Hedstone on Feb 17, 2012, 02:08:01 PM

Quote from: Scarr, Eating Cookies on Feb 17, 2012, 02:04:23 PM
Yes they are cheesy. In my last game one of my Sabertusks took out an Eagle and two Repeater Bolt Throwers on his own. That's over 11 times his cost!

But they are still a pretty essential part of the game. Most armies have a type of "chaff" to do these things. Some armies don't have that high quality or cheapness on them, but they are there none the less.

Forget the unit for the moment, i'm more talking about the act of re-directing.. and i think you got a little lucky there taking all that out with a single sabretusk. just mho

I know I was lucky, but still...

Redirecting was much better in 7th edition. I think it is useful because then players can use their skills. Movement and Deployment are the only phases in the game where everything isn't about rolls. Therefore it depends on skill, which is good.

Enkiel · « **Reply #8 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 02:20:34 PM »

redirector is key now.

Most if not all army have access to something similar, could be cheap light cavalry, or 1 model unit like Eagle.

8th ed is basically all about controlling ennemy movement with redirector. If you take that away, there's close to no chance at all you ever manage to get a flank or rear charge on an ennemy unit.

BaSe · « **Reply #9 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 02:29:12 PM »

Eagles are far worse due to being able to fly. How they can be classed as cheesy I don't know. Leadership 4 with no means of improvement? Once they run they run.

danielking4812 · « **Reply #10 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 02:34:46 PM »

Still, ours have WS 4, S4, 3 attacks, Initiative 4, and multiple wounds. All for only 21 points. That's pretty good I think.

Enkiel · « **Reply #11 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 02:47:20 PM »

Quote from: danielking4812 on Feb 17, 2012, 02:34:46 PM

Still, ours have WS 4, S4, 3 attacks, Initiative 4, and multiple wounds. All for only 21 points. That's pretty good I think.

when it comes down to it, most of the time, it wont matter, unless you fight against opponent redirector.

danielking4812 · « **Reply #12 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 02:53:58 PM »

Quote from: Enkiel on Feb 17, 2012, 02:47:20 PM

when it comes down to it, most of the time, it wont matter, unless you fight against opponent redirector.

I would argue against this. I think that it does matter, in case you fight something like a dwarf war machine. The toughness and strength allow it to tie or win combat a lot to stop shooting. And since it has such a small front base size, I have taken down a group of elven archers with one. It is pretty strong. We give up about 4" movement on march/run for more power at a lower cost compared to eagles. I still think it's pretty strong.

Randroid · « **Reply #13 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 03:59:26 PM »

If it was an all Khorne Chaos Warriors list I can see how he might feel that way. Without shooting or magic to take them out it leaves you with some big (kinda slow) blocks of scary troops that nobody wants to take a charge from. Maybe if he had some dogs to take on the cats? Or perhaps some Marauder Horsemen?

rothgar13 · « **Reply #14 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 04:04:48 PM »

Not cheesy, tactical. Tell your opponent to quit his whining and play the game instead of trying to load up on attacks and push miniatures forward and hope that's enough to win. If he doesn't like it, he should try to deal with it. It's not like WoC has to fold the tent and call the game if someone brings chaff.

Bob the Butcher · « **Reply #15 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 09:02:34 PM »

Its called Tactics

Kraton · « **Reply #16 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 09:31:23 PM »

Sounds like someone got stink face..
I think that GW embraces redirectors. Most armies have an option. I can't imagine a HE list that would be competitive withou three eagles. We got the Tusks and the VC got vargoyles which may be a redirector that can win battles.
I think your opponent was frustrated by not understanding redirecting.

sitaavanu · « **Reply #17 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 10:14:01 PM »

It's an intended mechanic of the game. Perhaps your group just needs you to be the vassal of change to get them to step their gameup.

Blunt Object · « **Reply #18 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 11:12:16 PM »

Redirecting isn't cheesy at all and it's a central tactic used in the game. If deployed correctly it's a very effective way of manipulating enemy movement. And it can easily frustrate and overburden the generalship of "unexperienced" opponents - which again is the goal of tactical manouvres.
But is it cheesy - no way!

Cleavelander · « **Reply #19 on:** Feb 17, 2012, 11:18:36 PM »

Sounds like his cheesy list didn't bring a way to handle redirectors.

d6 · « **Reply #20 on:** Feb 18, 2012, 12:07:12 AM »

This is a great example of something I try to get people to realize about wargaming with people whom they don't know, or who in turn, don't know what type of gamer they are.

Someone who PRIMARILY games fluff and narratives, generally has a problem with redirecting, whereas the tactical, strategic focused player sees nothing wrong with it. Both are right. But for different reasons. The narrative sees a single sabretusk run out in front of the ogres and turn itself in a certain way. That makes no sense narratively. It should simply run in and start killing, or something to that affect. A strategic focused player see the sabretusk as simply "a unit" that can fulfill a role to take advantage of the rules to get a desired outcome regardless of whether or not it would make sense in a real battle. I find that strategic players see shapes more than units. Not so much now, but DEFINETLY in 7th where movement was KEY.

Then of course we have the people who have no idea what they PRIMARILY are as a gamer and just hate on things they can't deal with (which is probably the guy you faced). But once they realize how to do it/deal with it themselves, love it and see nothing wrong with it. I find that these are usually the strategic types.

I could type a good page or so going in depth on my observations of playing wargames for years, but thats for another time

. All I'm saying is, if you know what type of gamer you are and what type your opponent is you can usually tell whether or not you'll have "better than normal" game or more frustrating occurences during games. Two strategic focused players see nothing wrong with redirectors and so will not care, for example.

Dragoonkin · « **Reply #21 on:** Feb 18, 2012, 12:29:21 AM »

If Sabertusks were "fluffily" intended to run in and just start killing stuff without a care, they wouldn't be Ld 4. They would be ItP.

Da GoBBo · « **Reply #22 on:** Feb 18, 2012, 01:05:35 AM »

Sabertusks don't add anything special to the table when compared to other armies, but seeing as none of our other units can do all that sabertusks can do, and the fact that it is an extremely usefull addition in an ogre army, they are very cheap ... in this army. IMO being cheap is all that could perhaps make them cheesy, but only because of how they mesh with this particular army for such a low cost. In the grand scheme of warhammer fantasy battles it is just another unit among many, albeit a cheap one. There are plenty of ways to deal with units such as these. An army that can't is either ill thought, or doesn't worry about these sorts of units to begin with.

jerkhan · « **Reply #23 on:** Feb 18, 2012, 02:14:59 AM »

Tell him to snack it. We've been getting owned by redirectors for years. Now we can make a competitive list and everyone calls cheesy now. Tough titties. It's our turn to take some games. Warriors can take dogs, but they don't, because the Internet says they are not optimal. Every army has a type of redirector. Or just kill the cats with magic missiles. Their LD is still garbage, so they will run or die. I've had phenomenal success with three cats and three ten packs of gnoblars as dead drops. Six deployments for under 150 points. There are still plenty of builds that give us a headache. I've found every race is a challenge when you opponent knows what he's doing. Bottom line, its supposed to be hard to win. That's the point.

rothgar13 · « **Reply #24 on:** Feb 18, 2012, 02:17:29 AM »

I don't know what sites you've been looking at, but if you look at places like Librarium Online or Chamber of the Everchosen, no one leaves home without Dogs or Marauder Horse, and the Dogs are much more popular (though they're not much of a match for a Sabretusk anyway). The Internet actually has some fairly good advice if you look for it.