Beat This! 2500 points Chaos Dwarfs

[Gralph Boarbiter]

This is just meant to be a heads up to all my fellow Ogre players.  the Legion of Azgorh army list is pretty dang nasty.  Tinkering around a little, I came up with the following (which, incidentally, I plan on being the third army I collect once I finish up with the Night Goblins).

LORDS
Sorceror-Prophet:  350 pts
-Level 4, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Protection, Lore of Hashut

HEROES
Daemonsmith Sorceror:  145 pts
-Dispel Scroll and Ruby Ring of Ruin (Lore of Fire)

Infernal Castellan:  197 pts
-BSB, Shield, The Mask of the Furnace

CORE UNITS
37 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard:  476 pts
-Full Command

40 Hobgoblin Cutthroats:  186 pts
-Full Command

40 Hobgoblin Cutthroats:  186 pts
-Full Command

SPECIAL UNITS
Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon:  145 pts

Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon:  145 pts

Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon:  145 pts

Deathshrieker Death Rocket:  100 pts

Deathstrieker Death Rocket:  100 pts

RARE UNITS
K'daai Destroyer:  325 pts

This is the type of obstacle course list I've been talking about.  From T1 on, your Ogres will be eating 3 flame cannons (S5, D3 wounds).  Then you have the Destroyer who is just...  Well, if you haven't found out how tough they are, look them up on YouTube--there's a very "interesting" battle report from someone who had his entire army taken out by a 325 point unit.

Once you get through all that (and there's absolutely no guarantee that you will), you've got a guy throwing two fireballs a turn at your chaff and another guy slowing down your most powerful unit and/or making your wizards unable to cast.  Then you get to a horde of WS 5, S4, T4, 3+ armor guys.  Not exactly a fun army to have to deal with.

So, how would you beat an army like this?  Yes, it's WAAC, yes, it's boring, yes, you're likely to see it, or something like it, at high-end play.

[grey templar]

I really have no idea how Ogres would beat this list.

The ideal situation would be, Ogres get first turn and the 2 Iblasters take out 2 Flame cannons before they can shoot.

Then on turn 2 they try and take out the Destroyer. Sabretusks are used to redirect it.

If the Destroyer is baited successfully and 2 Flame Cannons are down 1st turn then the Ogres have a good shot at winning. The Destroyer MUST be baited away so the Iblasters can get multiple shots off at it.

If the remaining Flame Cannon didn't do too much damage then the ogre army should be able to smash the Infernal Guard if they hit them together. The Hobgoblins will need to be blocked/dealt with before this happens.

This would give Ogres a fighting chance, but overall its VERY bad for ogres.

[Frost Jotun]

If you're going to tailor the list to beat them I can see 2 Ironblasters and a hunter on stonehorn being useful (with a 2+ ward against flaming attacks), as well as 3 Gorgers. Keep the other units in a single rank and spread them out.
Use a ton of maneaters with BoP and Poison to tackle the Destroyer. (I can't find the pdf rules for it, but I assume it's not immune to poison)
I imagine Mournfangs could tear the Infernal Guards apart, but they need to hang back until the magmacannons and rocket launchers start going down.
3 sabres ofc.
Possibly a Tyrant on a carpet with 2+ ward vs. flaming attacks, and a Firebelly with Hellheart might do some dmg to the wizard.

[Gralph Boarbiter]

If you're going to tailor the list to beat them...

Therein lies the issue--this is very must an all-comers tournament-style list.  If you tailor against it, you're going to have problems with every other list out there.

[grey templar]

Exactly,


Although I can see this list having trouble vs an Empire Gunline. They can have enough cannons to blast the Flamecannons away and then focus fire on the destroyer. And maybe have a Steamtank or 2 get into a grind with the Destroyer. Backed up by life its going to be tough for the Destroyer to win.

If you can deal with the Warmachines the actual CD infantry are fairly lackluster. Cool, but they are basically expensive Chaos Warriors with M3.

[Far2Casual]

I play Chaos Dwarves too and you are completely right that their standard army list will probably have a 90% winrate against your standard deathstar + 2*4 mournfangs list. With 3 Magma Cannons and a Destroyer, he will own your entire army.

From my experience, they have one BIG problem : they actually DON'T win artillery games due to their lack of cannons. So if you have 2 ironblasters, just stay out of range of one or two magma cannons if possible and snipe their machines from far away. Two Ironblasters will kill their machines a million times faster than he will kill yours.

Lastly well, I'd say it before, but you lack of faith in the Tyrant is disturbing. My build is great against a Destroyer : 5A, hitting on 2's, wounding on 3's, and he has to reroll his ward saves. Not something he'll like.

[Gralph Boarbiter]

From my experience, they have one BIG problem : they actually DON'T win artillery games due to their lack of cannons. So if you have 2 ironblasters, just stay out of range of one or two magma cannons if possible and snipe their machines from far away. Two Ironblasters will kill their machines a million times faster than he will kill yours.

This is the one saving grace against CDs.  Of course, it is darned hard to stay out of range of 24" plus "bounce" flame cannons, but if you try to play the (very) long game you can have an advantage.

Of course, he'll be shooting his Deathshriekers at your Scrappies, but they're far less efficient at counterbattery fire.

In addition, your (almost as expensive as the Destroyer) Tyrant does about 2 wounds to the Destroyer...  And then he or the unit he's with takes somewhere between 5-8 wounds.  Not exactly an even trade, I'd say.

[JFB324]

2-3 cannons, 1-2 catapults, 1-2 organ guns, anvil, 20 miners with thane, master engineer, 40 quarrels,..

[Far2Casual]

Indeed, but if he is supported by guts like you seem to imply, he will take 15 S6 attacks back (more or less, depending the configuration), that's around 1.88 more wounds. He dies next turn taking 4 Ironguts with him. Fair trade I'd say.

[Gralph Boarbiter]

Indeed, but if he is supported by guts like you seem to imply, he will take 15 S6 attacks back (more or less, depending the configuration), that's around 1.88 more wounds. He dies next turn taking 4 Ironguts with him. Fair trade I'd say.

Definitely.  If you bring 600 points against 325, you have a pretty good chance of winning that combat. 

More seriously, there's a pretty good chance of the Destroyer taking out the Tyrant before he swings, which not only gives him his points back, but also removing your general from the game and making those panic tests from the artillery even more crippling.

[Far2Casual]

Hey Gralph I'm only trying to help . Trying to win the game by getting in close combat with a hordestar that's impossible you are right, thread closed. It's like trying to beat Goblins with 18 fanatics and two Manglers with a list full of Bret knights.

Now, I am suggesting one or two strategies based on the experience I had in a very recent tournament where I brought 1.2k pts of Chaos Dwarves in a team tournament with 1.2k of Chaos Warriors. Of course, the Destroyer was not a factor there, but the rest still apply (french reports but at least you see I'm not lying).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzlp35bwu8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJUcogelyCE

For the rest of the discussion, here is my next standard 2k5 list that I'll use in our club competition :

Tyrant, General, Ironfist, HA, Giantbreaker, Sword of Striking, The ohter Trickster's Shard, Greedy Fist, Enchanted Shield - 320 Pts.

Bruiser, Ironfist, HA, Warrior Bane, Crown of Command, Dragonhelm, BSB - 188 Pts.
Butcher, 2xHw, lvl2, Rock Eye, Staff of Sorcery, Lore of The Great Maw - 177 Pts.
Firebelly, 2xHw, Hellheart, Lore of Fire - 172 Pts.

10 Ogres, Handweapon & Ironfist, M, S, C - 350 Pts.
7 Ironguts, M, S, C, Std. of Discipline - 346 Pts.

4 Mournfang Cavalry, HA, Ironfist, M, S, Dragonhide Banner - 350 Pts.
3 Maneaters, HA, 3 x 2xHw, Scouts, Swift Stride, M, S, Gleaming Pennant - 193 Pts.
1 Sabretusks - 21 Pts.
1 Sabretusks - 21 Pts.
1 Sabretusks - 21 Pts.

Ironblaster - 170 Pts.
Ironblaster - 170 Pts.


First of all, their deployment is incredibly bad. By the time I'll have deployed my 3 Sabretusks, half of his army will be deployed and I'll have a very good idea where his machines are or will be.

In this specific matchup, I'll put all my characters in the Ironguts, and my entire army at the other side of the battle waiting for the Magma Cannons to be taken out. My Ironblasters will be at 36" range of his machine and take them one by one. He has no real option but to try to come in close combat.

His army with M3 or 4 has 0 chance of getting into combat if I don't want it, and his Destroyer will be unsupported if it comes close. That thing does not fly and is frenzied with Ld8 outside the BSB bubble. So its charges are easy to block, and he is easy to bait and to redirect. In combat against the "gutstar", I'll just put the Firebelly (4+ ward vs flaming), the BSB (2+ ward vs flaming) and the Tyrant and see him going down slowly to wounds and combat res.

That would be my tactic. Don't know if it'll work, but at least I think it has a small chance of success.

[Gralph Boarbiter]

It's a chance, but just a small one. As mentioned, the Destroyer does between 4 and 5 wounds to the Tyrant on average and, in return, takes 2 wounds from the Tyrant, .25 wounds from the BSB, and another 2.25 wounds from the Ironguts. The Firebelly cannot hurt him at all.  Then there's impact hits, Burning Body, and Thinderstomp. Not looking particularly great for that unit and that's before we include magic.

A single Ash Storm skews things so badly that it becomes comical, and with the Dwarfs marching 6" a turn, getting it off isn't terribly difficult. Likewise, magic missiles and the like can be expected to do a number on the Sabertusks, limiting their role as redirectora (and remember, the Destroyer is M9). With that kind of speed, it can play Ironblaster hunter if need be.

It's got a chance of working, but I don't particularly like the odds.

[Far2Casual]

May I put your maths in question there ?

On the Tyrant (WS 6, T5, 3+/6++) :
1 S4 auto hit = 0.33 wounds, 0.14W after saves
8 WS5 S7 attacks = 4 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.7W after saves.
Total = 3 wounds in average.

How do you get 5 wounds ?

Furthermore, it has no impact hits and can't Thunderstomp us. With the wounds we do, and our static combat res, he crumbles in one round due to its Unstability.

[Gralph Boarbiter]

Completely whiffed on the Thunderstomp, sorry about that.

However, keep in mind that the Destroyer not only has Frenzy, but gets +d3 attacks for it. Also keep in mind that the OTS will be affecting your own unit as well.

[Edit] Also, how are you taking an Ironfist and Enchanted Shield? Just noticed and it looks a bit like a typo.

[ShootingPhase]

Drop a comet.

[grey templar]

Now that's actually an idea.


Maybe a Heaven's SM with Flying Carpet, Armor of Silvered Steel, and Dragonbane gem.

Just dropping Comets all over those little stunty's

[Gralph Boarbiter]

Drop a comet.

Comet actually wouldn't be a bad idea here, actually, assuming you can get it off and it comes down at the right time (too soon and it's not damaging enough, too late and you've been shot to hell anyway).

[grey templar]

They key would probably getting it off with IF each and every turn so you have multiple Comets coming down.

And as a Side benifit you will have Iceshard Blizzard to stop some of his Warmachines from firing if you want.

[Gralph Boarbiter]

They key would probably getting it off with IF each and every turn so you have multiple Comets coming down.

And as a Side benifit you will have Iceshard Blizzard to stop some of his Warmachines from firing if you want.

Yes, but if you're getting a comet off with IF, you run the very real risk of not being able to cast Comet again.  Additionally, you're relying on getting 6 power dice (not unlikely) and rolling double sixes (26% chance?).  Not the best strategy.

At S5, a comet will likely hurt a war machine, but will struggle to finish it off.  Once you get to S6, those odds go up astronomically and at S7-8, you're really looking good.  And Blizzard helps, somewhat, but honestly, if you're hit by 3 magma cannons on T1 and T2, there's not going to be a whole lot of Ogres left to get the job done.

Basically, the odds are stacked against the Ogre player from the start.  But I suppose that's half the fun?

[grey templar]

yup, still not a great situation for us.

I suppose its only fair what with our new power level. And it in turn is countered by CD being vulnerable to other army books with good options for killing warmachines quickly.