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Author Topic: Dragonhide banner & ASL  (Read 2423 times)

Mrfantastical

Dragonhide banner & ASL
« on: Sep 02, 2011, 12:55:56 AM »
From my understanding the Dragon hide banner gives the standard bearer a breathe weapon that causes ASL until the ogre's next turn.

Most Ogres are I2 (Bruiser/Maneater I3) but considering that the average initiative is I4 you still can't get it off before most opponents you fight on the first turn of combat.

My question is, "how do we make this work for us?"


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Orktavius

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #1 on: Sep 02, 2011, 01:08:05 AM »
easy, you charge them, use banner, on their turn they strike last and PROFIT
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Mrfantastical

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #2 on: Sep 02, 2011, 01:13:01 AM »
Um, think you miss the point. Is there a way to make this go off either before or at I4. If not, the ASL is kinda useless.
When they come, they'll eat the fat ones first.

New Book record:16-1-2

Enkiel

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #3 on: Sep 02, 2011, 01:16:50 AM »
Um, think you miss the point. Is there a way to make this go off either before or at I4. If not, the ASL is kinda useless.
ASL apparently last a whole turn, so 2 round of close combat...

There's no other easy way to get it sadly.

Mrfantastical

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #4 on: Sep 02, 2011, 01:31:24 AM »
Thank you Enkiel.

And thank you Jervis Johnson. I have a feeling I'm going to be saying that lot come Saturday.
When they come, they'll eat the fat ones first.

New Book record:16-1-2

Falconlance

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #5 on: Sep 02, 2011, 01:46:40 AM »
That banner was, at 60pts, an offensive joke. At the very least he shaved 10pts off and gave it a half-useful trait. It's still kind of a joke, but since the mournfangs can take it, it can be put to decent use.

huesofblue

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #6 on: Sep 02, 2011, 01:54:29 AM »
In other words, the ASL aspect of the breath attack is useless if you plan your combats around crushing the enemy unit in 1 round. However, if you expect the combat to last at least 2 combat phases (and if you haven't broken and fled instead  :P) it's actually a very valuable trait, both for preserving wounds and increasing CR difference if you kill enough models first to reduce attacks/wounds done back.

That said, it's a useless trait if most units you face run GWs.

grey templar

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #7 on: Sep 02, 2011, 03:31:01 AM »
Its still useful for simply having a Breath Weapon and rerolling 1s on the charge(mournfangs should always be breaking their enemy and running them down)

If it gives us immunity to Ice magic I swear I will, at an undetermined point in time, maybe in a week, maybe in 10 years, buy a plane ticket to England and give Jervis Johnson a double titty twister on his proverbial moobs. and maybe a good dutch rub for good measure.
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Falconlance

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #8 on: Sep 02, 2011, 03:47:48 AM »
Never let it be said that Grey Templar is not a passionate man.

Mrfantastical

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #9 on: Sep 02, 2011, 03:51:34 AM »
Its still useful for simply having a Breath Weapon and rerolling 1s on the charge(mournfangs should always be breaking their enemy and running them down)

I agree it's still good for being able to re-roll 1's and the Breath Weapon. However the ASL must've been factored in to the rationale for the point cost. If there had been a condition of causing a wound for the ASL to trigger then impact hits would have benefited.

As is, Jervis could have left it off, and saved 10 points.
When they come, they'll eat the fat ones first.

New Book record:16-1-2

Falconlance

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #10 on: Sep 02, 2011, 04:18:36 AM »
It does seem a bit redundant, what with our access to the thundertusk... which is 100 times more effective for that purpose.

But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that Jervis isn't exactly the guy you want if your focus is efficiency. Isn't he the guy that invented the 12'' shuriken catapult?

Ghunter

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #11 on: Sep 02, 2011, 07:05:42 AM »
What about a combo ? Unit whith DHB goes 1" away of a unit whereas the big hammer unit declares a charge on said enemy unit and ...

Wait can you use Breath Weapons on engaged units ? If yes it's a good tactic, else forget my post... -_-
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Thunder lord klement

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #12 on: Sep 02, 2011, 07:21:48 AM »
How about march up into the enemys face, use the breath weapon and then recieve the charge? If not the unit stay stationary and just get something in viable flank charge range, (say mournfangs ;D ) so they can either charge you at ASL or stay not doing anything for 1 turn. Or you could put it on a BSB and use the bruisers higher INI to get it before the enemy attacks?

TLK!

Komone

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #13 on: Sep 02, 2011, 10:56:43 AM »
If you can charge.. I'd do it. The impact hits should be worth going last in the 1st round of combat hopefully especially with a good roll on the charge.

K
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Mrfantastical

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #14 on: Sep 02, 2011, 11:44:58 AM »
It does seem a bit redundant, what with our access to the thundertusk... which is 100 times more effective for that purpose.

But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that Jervis isn't exactly the guy you want if your focus is efficiency. Isn't he the guy that invented the 12'' shuriken catapult?

The thundertusk, ah yes the unit with 3 range weapons on it, can't do impact hits on the charge, so for me it's clearly designed to stay at a range for fire support. Yet it has a 6" ASL bubble?!?! WTF, that would have worked better on the stonehorn, which is designed to get into combat.

How about march up into the enemys face, use the breath weapon and then recieve the charge? If not the unit stay stationary and just get something in viable flank charge range, (say mournfangs ;D ) so they can either charge you at ASL or stay not doing anything for 1 turn. Or you could put it on a BSB and use the bruisers higher INI to get it before the enemy attacks?

TLK!

If you do that you don't get the ability to re-roll 1's.

Thanks again Jervis, you are REALLY making me look forward to Saturday.
When they come, they'll eat the fat ones first.

New Book record:16-1-2

Enkiel

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #15 on: Sep 02, 2011, 11:56:44 AM »
How about march up into the enemys face, use the breath weapon and then recieve the charge? If not the unit stay stationary and just get something in viable flank charge range, (say mournfangs ;D ) so they can either charge you at ASL or stay not doing anything for 1 turn. Or you could put it on a BSB and use the bruisers higher INI to get it before the enemy attacks?

TLK!
you'd go to war with a "naked" bsb? and our bruiser doesnt have a stellar Ini either...

Enkiel

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #16 on: Sep 02, 2011, 11:58:00 AM »
It does seem a bit redundant, what with our access to the thundertusk... which is 100 times more effective for that purpose.

But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that Jervis isn't exactly the guy you want if your focus is efficiency. Isn't he the guy that invented the 12'' shuriken catapult?

The thundertusk, ah yes the unit with 3 range weapons on it, can't do impact hits on the charge, so for me it's clearly designed to stay at a range for fire support. Yet it has a 6" ASL bubble?!?! WTF, that would have worked better on the stonehorn, which is designed to get into combat.
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ogreama

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #17 on: Sep 02, 2011, 11:58:21 AM »
Breath weapons can be used in close combat. BRB pg. 67

You still strike with it at your I value in close combat, making it not worth your while unless you shoot and then charge.

Unless the bearer also has an ASF item or I boosting item.

ogreama

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #18 on: Sep 02, 2011, 12:20:02 PM »
...which would mean that it is guaranteed to be on my BSB.

...question is, since it's effect is a magic banner that used in the Magic Phase, does it override the "breath weapon in close combat rules" as if it was released from the character/monster itself?

...then it wouldn't matter what I value you have...charge, magic phase, use the banner, ASL rule given, close combat at the end.

Mrfantastical

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #19 on: Sep 02, 2011, 12:27:17 PM »
Breath weapons can be used in close combat. BRB pg. 67

Yes if a model is in close combat then it can use a breathe weapon in that same combat. If a model with a BW is outside of CC it can't fire in.

You still strike with it at your I value in close combat, making it not worth your while unless you shoot and then charge.

Unless the bearer also has an ASF item or I boosting item.

If you shoot, you have to be charged for you to get the ASL benefit ( which you loose the ability to re-roll 1's).

And there is no way for a standard bearer or BSB with magic banner to take magic items.
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New Book record:16-1-2

Mrfantastical

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #20 on: Sep 02, 2011, 12:31:20 PM »
...which would mean that it is guaranteed to be on my BSB.

...question is, since it's effect is a magic banner that used in the Magic Phase, does it override the "breath weapon in close combat rules" as if it was released from the character/monster itself?

...then it wouldn't matter what I value you have...charge, magic phase, use the banner, ASL rule given, close combat at the end.

Magic banners aren't used durig the magic phase unless specified by the banner. And this one doesn't give the ability to use it's BW during the magic phase from what I've read.
When they come, they'll eat the fat ones first.

New Book record:16-1-2

Darkminion

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Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #21 on: Sep 02, 2011, 12:32:21 PM »
The ASL aspect of the banner can be pretty handy I think. Since it works until the end of your opponents next turn. If for some reason you were not able to manouvre just right and get charged by your opponent, you use the banner in his combat round, then for your next combat round AND his next combat round after that he has ASL, its like a handy failsave if things work out badly, since if charged you have a much harder time breaking your opponent in one round...

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ogreama

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #22 on: Sep 02, 2011, 12:43:21 PM »
Ah yes, I forgot about the BSB=No Items thing.

So you're saying...

Charge...hit the unit...hope the character has the highest I value...use the banner's breath weapon...give ASL to the enemy...kill at you leisure.

I also like the defense aspect of this item as well, use with Stubborn and this is a nasty unit.

polybus

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #23 on: Sep 02, 2011, 12:52:41 PM »
It could be useful for a unit of Mournfangs that charge into a deeply ranked unit, can't break them due to steadfast and guarantee that they get another round of attacks before being further whittled.

Mrfantastical

Re: Dragonhide banner & ASL
« Reply #24 on: Sep 02, 2011, 12:56:04 PM »
I can see this, but only if you flank them. But in that example the deeply ranked unit wouldn't be steadfast cause you flanked them.... So chances are you're mournfang unit is going to break them unless they are stubborn.

Mournfang are going to be a "Win or go home unit", which means you don't want a prolonged combat because they are so big, that they are going to get flanked if they stay around in combat.
When they come, they'll eat the fat ones first.

New Book record:16-1-2

 

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