Author Topic: High Elves + Thundertusk (Read 3590 times)

Vault_Dweller · « **on:** Aug 15, 2011, 06:59:38 PM »

Keeping with the theme of asking rules questions based on our new army book:

How would High Elves (ASF) and the Thundertusk (ASL) interact? According to the High Elves FAQ, Sword Masters with their Great Weapons keep their ASF, but only because the army book takes precedence, so I would say it is not applicable in this situation... Am I missing something?

Sandals · « **Reply #1 on:** Aug 15, 2011, 07:22:51 PM »

There's a huge arguement about this on TWF, so I won't go into it too much here. Suffice to say it wil depend entirely on the wording of the Thundertusk's special rule.

However, if you're asking for an opinion, then I think they should strike in initiative order. They can ignore the ASL from their GWs thanks to their rule, but the Thundertusk's application of it could not be ignored. As I say, this is just my feeling on the matter and not fact.

Vault_Dweller · « **Reply #2 on:** Aug 15, 2011, 07:30:04 PM »

Then we will just have to wait and see (and hope GW has actually thought about it as well

)

grey templar · « **Reply #3 on:** Aug 15, 2011, 07:40:30 PM »

I think they revert to their Inititive because Speed of Asurmen only allows them to ignore ASL from any weapons they are wielding.

the Thundertusk gives them ASL independently of weapons.

This basically denys them their pesky reroll.

Big Papa Maugo · « **Reply #4 on:** Aug 16, 2011, 02:26:21 AM »

Honestly, assuming that it's worded as "All enemy units within 6" have the Always Strike Last" rule, then that's exactly how my group play it.

Look at it this way:
Speed Of Asuryan is an internal effect. That is to say, it's native to the army.
The Thundertusk's frost aura is an external effect. That is, one which it enforces onto something regardless of any other rules.

It's like how Bretonnian bowmens spike thingies take away things charge bonuses. The specific effect (frost aura) should always trump a general one (Speed of Asuryan).

Greki · « **Reply #5 on:** Aug 16, 2011, 07:28:44 AM »

In my opinion, with Thundertusk's special rule, White Lions would have ASL two times (once per 2 hand weapon and second time per Thundertusk). The rulebook says ASF eliminates ASL and they attack by their own I.
But, if the Thundertusk eliminates Speed of Asuryan, that would mean that White Lions would have ASL. Am I wrong?

P.S: Forgive my English, I'm not very good xD

grey templar · « **Reply #6 on:** Aug 16, 2011, 07:31:13 PM »

I belive that would be true.

1st ASL is canceled by Speed,

2nd ASL sticks.

so Swordmasters and White Lions get boned. everyone else just loses their reroll.

Cleavelander · « **Reply #7 on:** Aug 16, 2011, 07:56:54 PM »

Multiple applications of ASL/ASF don't stack with eachother. Under SoA, the GW troops ignore their weapon induced ASL. When near the thundertusk, they are affected with a nonweapon based ASL source. The ASL and ASF counteract and cause all HEs to strike in initiative order, regardless of what they are swinging.

VooDooChilly · « **Reply #8 on:** Aug 17, 2011, 04:21:08 PM »

Quote "An Enemy model within 6" of a Thundertusk has the Always Strikes Last special rule"

Cormorant · « **Reply #9 on:** Aug 17, 2011, 07:30:26 PM »

So either way, those horrible elves are STILL going to be striking before we do...so whats it matter?

Sandals · « **Reply #10 on:** Aug 17, 2011, 07:38:05 PM »

Quote from: Cleavelander on Aug 16, 2011, 07:56:54 PM

Multiple applications of ASL/ASF don't stack with eachother. Under SoA, the GW troops ignore their weapon induced ASL. When near the thundertusk, they are affected with a nonweapon based ASL source. The ASL and ASF counteract and cause all HEs to strike in initiative order, regardless of what they are swinging.

And there's the arguement. Can you get multiple 'stacks' of ASL? Or is it a blanket rule that if you have once, you cannot get again?

As I said, if you want to debate the details of the rules, down to the spelling and meaning of every word, then I advise TWF. If, like me, you're fed up with that sort of fight, let's agree it's murky until we see the book or an FAQ.

grey templar · « **Reply #11 on:** Aug 17, 2011, 07:42:45 PM »

Quote from: Cormorant on Aug 17, 2011, 07:30:26 PM

So either way, those horrible elves are STILL going to be striking before we do...so whats it matter?

No rerolls to hit us

Cormorant · « **Reply #12 on:** Aug 17, 2011, 08:24:21 PM »

Quote from: grey templar on Aug 17, 2011, 07:42:45 PM

Quote from: Cormorant on Aug 17, 2011, 07:30:26 PM
So either way, those horrible elves are STILL going to be striking before we do...so whats it matter?

No rerolls to hit us

Touche sir! I forget about that extra annoyance in the rule. I withdraw my statement from the record

pauduro24 · « **Reply #13 on:** Aug 20, 2011, 06:19:29 AM »

Well i remember reading some where that they cancel each other out and then you have to go with "I" for each model

It was on a faq for an other army asking for the High Elves (ASF) but we have to wait and see hehe

grey templar · « **Reply #14 on:** Aug 20, 2011, 02:24:29 PM »

Yeah, thats what you do.

the problem with this situation is HEs with Great Weapons. do they go to striking in I order, or do they actually strike last.

Mercules · « **Reply #15 on:** Aug 23, 2011, 01:22:20 PM »

They ignore the ASL of their weapons. This means they have ASF. The granted ASL and ASF cancel each other so they strike on their Initiative. That means they are still striking before us, but I have to tell you that when they are hitting me 2/3rds of the time already, I would be very happy to get rid of the re-rolling misses part. 18 swing at me and 12 hit then 4 re-roll and hit so really only 2 miss. That is painful. 12 hits with 2+-3+ to wound is plenty already.

Gutlord Inquisitor · « **Reply #16 on:** Aug 23, 2011, 05:43:32 PM »

It is tempting to say that the granted ASL cancels out ASF from Speed of Asuryan and then any Great Weapon armed elves then get affected by ASL of their weapons and actually strike last... but I don't think it works like that. The elves simply have ASF and ASL special rules and therefore strike in initiative order with no rerolls no matter what weapon they are carrying.

kobahl · « **Reply #17 on:** Aug 23, 2011, 11:36:27 PM »

That is how I would play it also. Re-rolls to hit will be nice enough to remove. I know when I play my O&G and get re-rolls with magic my unit just chews through the enemy.

grey templar · « **Reply #18 on:** Aug 24, 2011, 12:13:07 AM »

It matters not, everyone else goes LAST. frakkin last I tell you.

Genestealer · « **Reply #19 on:** Aug 24, 2011, 02:18:10 AM »

Agreed. It is still going to be awesome going before every other army out there!

Cormorant · « **Reply #20 on:** Aug 24, 2011, 05:46:24 PM »

Quote from: Genestealer on Aug 24, 2011, 02:18:10 AM

Agreed. It is still going to be awesome going before every other army out there!

Now all we need is the 7th edition rule that said if the models are killed they don't get to fight and we WOULD be a broken army! lol

Lexy · « **Reply #21 on:** Aug 27, 2011, 07:39:17 AM »

Quote from: Cormorant on Aug 24, 2011, 05:46:24 PM

Now all we need is the 7th edition rule that said if the models are killed they don't get to fight and we WOULD be a broken army! lol

You are so sigged

MaanNaam · « **Reply #22 on:** Aug 27, 2011, 07:56:21 AM »

I'm just sooo happy H-elves Sword masters won't get rerolls against me anymore

They can swing before me (got lots of bodies), but I will like it when they atleast miss a few.

Cormorant · « **Reply #23 on:** Aug 31, 2011, 01:30:25 PM »

Actually there has been some discussion that the Thundertusk will NOT be taking "Speed of Asuryan" away from the H-elves.

From my understanding of the argument the SoA is a separate rule from ASF entirely and ASL only cancels out ASF - not SoA. So the argument is saying that the H-elves will still strike first no matter what, and still get their re-rolls.

I hope they will write a FAQ on this to clarify because its very confusing. If I can get some links later I will.

kobahl · « **Reply #24 on:** Aug 31, 2011, 02:06:50 PM »

Do we have any HE around here (besides hanging in the pantry) that could give us the exact wording out of their book. Cause I believe SoA gives them ASF with any weapon. If that is so ASL from the thundertusk will negate their re-rolls.

Just pulled this off the HE site. The Speed of Asuryan special rule states that “all High Elves
have the special rule Always Strike First, regardless of the weapon
they are wielding.”

So, SoA GIVES THEM THE ASF special rule. So seems pretty clear cut to me. They get ASF with any weapon. Thundertusk gives them ASL. They strike at Int....seems pretty simple to me. Would like to see the arguament to the counter....