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Author Topic: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs  (Read 18757 times)

Gutlord

Re: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs
« Reply #200 on: Apr 30, 2011, 01:27:33 AM »
It was only him and the bsb in hammerers or whichever the stubborn unit is the banner is what gave the unit the ward save if i remeber correctly.  He had a 3+ armor save.  Then he had a 5+ ward save, his strength was 5 his initiative was 6.  Dwarfs are incredibly good at dispelling ogre magic because they have nothing better to do in thier magic phase, so that only helped on the charge.  He didnt challenge , and i didnt challenge ethier because it was a horde of bulls with just a butcher in it.

you need to throw one of the famous hitty yet defensive tyrants(there is a couple of builds on here) at it and watch that dwarf fall.

Micoola

Re: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs
« Reply #201 on: Apr 30, 2011, 01:33:08 AM »
i think the last thing a horde of bulls needs is a hitty tyrant, the bulls do great on thier own, i think he just had the perfect anti ogre weapon which caught me offguard.

Seabo76

Re: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs
« Reply #202 on: Apr 30, 2011, 12:15:47 PM »
Every Bull Horde needs a Hitty Tyrant!!!
Challenge him with the Tyrant. If he accepts with a Champ then pulp it and, if you survive the round ;), challenge again.
Fencers Blades and either the Greyback/Glitter combo or Tricksters Helm with the mandatory Mawseeker are golden. And the Tyrant gets 6 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 4s against the Lord whereas your Bulls would need 5s...
Gut Magic is highly situational versus Dwarfs. Try to get it off in your turn for that one combat phase because it's pretty much a guarantee that it's gone on his turn.
Of course, I would only take a Horde if I was facing a combat army...
Horde vs a gunline is just suicide lol. Take this with a grain of salt as my vast experience facing Dwarfs amounts to 2 games, one combat type and one pretty shooty...but I have won both of them :D
I also want to point out that I own 25 Gnoblars and a Trapper unit...That's it you say? How can you possibly win with just 25 Gnoblars?
I dunno lol. I just do ;)

Xoan

Re: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs
« Reply #203 on: Jun 22, 2011, 07:46:19 AM »
Dwarfs is my largest army and the one I have played the most out of all my armies in 7th and 8th ed, but not by much since I play a lot beastmen too.  I got into Ogres for two reasons, first I liked the models and had been collecting them slowly over the years, and second because both armies to make the move properly would require me to paint nearly a 100 models.  I have 10,000 of dwarfs, and as someone others have, said there are many ways to play them, but most of the time now days dwarfs use great weapons.  I am sadly short on great weapons.

I did a post in the Beastmen portion and I will do this one like wise talking about common units and why you will run into them, and then finish with common setup concepts.


Warriors and Long Beards (warrior type)
these guys should be the bulk  the force you fight, the many reason you will probably see less Long Beards than in the past is the extra cost for little gain per model.  A good reason you will see them, and something to keep in mind is that Long Beards can have Rune Standards with up to 3 magic runes that total less than 50 points.  I commonly put the Rune of Courage +30 and the Rune of Determination +20 (Immune to Fear and Terror and One use only make a leadership test on 1d6) on my Long Beards.  Another Rune I put on there is the Master Rune of Grungii +50 (5+ ward save vs ranged weapons and magic missiles)

BTW Dwarfs do not have volley, that is purely for bows only, so Crossbows, throwing axes, and guns need not apply as far as I know.

For ranged units there are basically thunders, which are awesome need 3s and 4s at long to hit, and are str4 armor piercing at 24 inch range.  They can have shields and I know some run them that way since they are the same stat line as warriors, just more costly and in light armor rather than heavy.  Quellers on the other hand have picked up some traction in 8th ed.  They can use great weapons, which is huge for dwarfs, but neither group can have magical banners.

Two more quick notes, Rangers are a single choice unless they have Bugman a named Hero, and because dwarfs only have a 3 inch movement base they tend to charge more often than shoot if you get too close to them and less likely charge you if you are just within short range for them.


Ironbreakers
 Were the only unit of dwarfs that got a 2+ armor save in 7th ed, but now the rules are different and they have a 3+.  They also can have a standard with up to 50 points of runes, and something to consider is that a dwarf can double up on non-master runes as long as the way the runes are, are different from other rune combos.  So with these guys I normally put a BSB in there with the rune that give +1 CR to the unit called the Rune of Battle +25, and the same rune plus the Rune of Determination +20 (the test leadership on 1d6 as before).   IB have a 4/4 s/t and are WS 5, so they are pretty elite troops, but they cost a lot too because of it.  Also if you are running WYSWYG they cost a lot of real life money to buy, so you tend to see them in smaller numbers.

Hammers
These almost always have a Dwarf Lord in them because he gives the unit bonuses for him being there.  While he is there the unit is fearless.  The unit is always Stubborn, so they are hard to move, they also come with Great Weapons, and can buy shields.   Someone said they have armor, that is partly true, they do have a 5+ armor save, but against even a str 4 bull with armor piercing the hammers will not get any saves.

 Slayers are harder to deal with imo, they can use 1 great weapon or 2 hand weapons, with the pair of weapons their strength raises to match the toughness of the person they are fighting maxing at 6.  This means that they can hurt your badasses.  They are also unbreakable, and have better initiative than other dwarfs.

War Machines are harder to deal with with dwarfs, but they can  start to cost a lot if people buy a lot of upgrades for them.  One thing to keep in mind is that an anvil is a war machine, so engineers can give bonuses to it so it count as defending terrain.  So it might take slightly more to kill than at first thought.   Also all war machines are stubborn.

Gyrocopters are more of an issue than many think at first in the new rules.  They use a low str flame template and fly around quickly. 


Oathstones are huge in 8th ed, but there are some rules to know about them.  There can not be any other hero or lord in the unit other than the oathstone bearer.  It gives him and the unit magic resist 1, he must challenge or accept challenges with the bearer.  Once it is placed the unit can never move unless it flees.  However, the unit can be flanked, hit in the rear, but they are not disrupted and they can make supporting attacks in any direction.  If the unit does flee for any reason the bearer gives up his vp as if he had died.   There is no limit to how many you can have, but you can not have it with shield bearers.

Shield Bearers are a general choice that must be a dwarf lord.  it gives him two extra attacks at WS5, S4, I2, and it gives him a 1+ armor save which can not be improved.  I personally ran this with the Master Rune of Steel +50 (all incoming attacks greater than strength 5 is treated as strength 5), and I think it is called the Rune of Resistance +25 which allows you (to reroll all failed armor saves). So at the very worst a Dwarf Lord with this combo could have a 4+ armor save with rerolls, and a 4+ talisman ward save for 45 more points out of their 125 allowed.  The last thing I would do is get the Rune of Speed +5 on my weapon so I had a magic weapon that gave me +1 Initiative.

Anvils are used only by Rune Lords, and can have up to 150 points in runes.  This means they can be quite offensive, or extremely defensive against magic or melee.  Common items now taken steal one power dice and give it to the dwarfs in your phase.  With a combination of items the dwarfs can get up to a +3 defense against spells, and due to the lag of how runes work they can have up to 6 normal dispel scrolls and  6 more special dispel scrolls that eats the spell as well on a 4+ if points allow that many hero and lord choices.

It is very common that a dwarf player will have more dispel dice than you have casting dice, and they have nothing to do in their turn but dispel any RiP spells in play on their turn.  I would never expect to have any spell last long even if it is not able to be dispelled.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most gun lines still have 2 blocks of melee 25 models or more with nearly max artillery with 30 to 50 ranged troops.  It is the same with all of them too, if it goes off in their favor, regardless of your army you will have more dead or fleeing than moving forward.  I have shot to a man a Warriors of Chaos army by end of turn 2 at 2250 with a tournament list.  That is not normal though, and I could not fail a roll...  my two Organ Guns wounded 34 out of 40 hits for example.  Also gun lines normally run an anvil so they can slow key units.

Large melee armies suffer from other armies because of greater mobility (While Ogres are faster, they are bulky and really do not count as being more mobile imo).  However, many or all of the units will have great weapons, and will probably rune dwarf lord or a rune lord with an anvil so they can get flank charges with greater ease. 
8th ED W/L Record 6 (4 massacred)/1/1

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Far2Casual

Re: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs
« Reply #204 on: Jul 14, 2011, 08:27:34 PM »
Played a game today against a Dwarf Player representing Belgium at the next ETC...

Man, I've never felt hopeless like this. His list (approximatively) :

Runelord with anvil

Thane with BSB, 100 pts Magic Banner that auto-dispells RiP in 12" at the end of his magic phase
Master Engie

2* 25 Warriors, FC, HW

20 Hammerers : FC, Shiels
20 Miners, FC
2* Catapults

2* Organ Gun

The Banner will autodispell all the Gut Magic spells in 12" around his BSB. My 2 casters wer u-s-e-l-e-s-s.
His shooting kill half of my units before going to close combat.
Then in close combat these dudes are as hard as ogres, have better armor and all have S5 attacks, in units of 20+ infantry.

So, magic useless, fire is tearing me apart, and the guy is better than me when I get to close combat.

Holy sh- ?

Ghunter

Re: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs
« Reply #205 on: Jul 19, 2011, 09:54:38 AM »
Did you try do cast 2 Bonecrusher per turn ? I don't think it would have save your game but it's the only useful thing I can think of if the Gutmagic buffs are dispelled every turn.
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Xoan

Re: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs
« Reply #206 on: Jul 21, 2011, 08:33:52 AM »
I was not at the game, but a person who makes a list like this doesn't normally miss a chance to keep their general near the important part of their army. so with a BSB that is leadership 9 or 10 rerolled, and that is if the war machines are not immune to panic for 20 points they can be unbreakable.

Even if this was not picked to fight you, it is a very normal dwarf list.  It is also the reason why I am not playing dwarfs right now, in 7th the big thing was to have shields, now it is to have great weapons.  Organ Guns do 2-10 hits that are str 5 with AP, so no one is getting an armor save.  The catapults are often times flame attacks since it costs 5 pts. 


There are several tricks I can see just from a glance, so let me take a guess at a few other things.  He used the Anvil early on to slow certain units down to hinder you doing combo charges or to prevent your deathstar from moving as fast.  He used his Anvil later to either get a flank charge, or to get a charge in his shooting phase.  This last tactic is very common on the board edges with Miners.  He Probably had the Warriors on the outside of his Hammer unit, which might of had a 5+ ward save against missile attacks.  That unit is stubborn so it is not going anywhere fast, and the BSB probably was in that unit too.

He probably had the Master Engineer within 3 inches of both catapults, since you choose to use his ability once per turn after the dice are rolled, and he can effect more than unit at a time, but only 1 per turn or something of that wording.  If I was him I would either nullify a table edge by playing both units of Organ Guns together, knowing anyone who goes that was will pay 2 or 3 times the 240 points sitting there defending it with Ogres that is.

Warriors and Miners with Great weapons are Strength 5, the Hammers are base strength 4, and all dwarfs need 3s to hits Ogres.  Also that same BSB banner gives +2 to dispelling, making dwarfs a base +4 to each attempt... if they took the staff too that is another +1. which puts them about normal for most armies who run a level 4 wizard.


IMO Ironguts open the cans, so you can eat your dwarf without pause.  Gut Magic is limited, but negating armor saves is about the best you can hope for.  I would have kept the Butchers/Slaughtermasters out of a unit or moved them out once I saw that banner, and gone away from the Organ Gun toward the catapult or anvil and blown it up.  We move faster, and these Dwarfs have poor range outside of the Organ Guns.  Catapults are better at hitting single models, but they still miss a lot of the time, and I would have to reread the wording on the Anvil, but I do not believe it can now hit a single non-monster unit.   I would have put Bulls into his warriors, if you were running them with Ogre Clubs, which is the best way atm imo.  I would not even worry about the BSB, he is not going to be around long enough, Dwarfs kill people with CR 3 or 4 times more times than with their weapons.  Ogres can out CR any Dwarf unit out there, we just lose a lot too, so we get thinned out fast, it comes down to how much damage Dwarfs do in the shooting phase.

Gorgers are always a must, once your units are in combat the Anvil has less to do, but if it can move a unit into your flank it has done a lot, so engaging the Anvil is still important.  Another think to remember one bad roll, a 3 or lower followed by a 1 and that 500 model of the Anvil is gone.  It doesn't a wound, it just goes bye bye.  If you are playing it safe with an Anvil you only fail on a 1, but I have seen that a lot too... I personally would not take a Anvil into a tournament, if they have comp scores you get nailed for them, and they can blow themselves up so easy.  A more powerful leader is the Dwarf Lord on Shield Bearers who costs about 300 pts, but that is another story.

Also Scrappies and Trappers are always important in any lists for Ogres, for the reasons well known. heh



PS... sorry had an after thought... Dwarf BSB are painfully weak in combat, anyone can crush them, they have a 4+ Armor save and at best a 5+ ward save and 2 wounds.   They have the old rules, that say that they can not have any magic items at all even if not wielding a magic standard, and they often times can be nearly a 300 pt model...   :(
8th ED W/L Record 6 (4 massacred)/1/1

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Davespaceman

Re: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs
« Reply #207 on: Jul 21, 2011, 11:57:33 AM »
Dwarf bsb can have runes if the dont have a runic standard. And they don't cost 300 points.

65 + 25(bsb) + 75 runes + 2 shield = 167
 WS6 T5 A3 3+ save before runes
they're pretty good
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Chuck Norris was the fourth wise man and gave Jesus his favorite gift, a beard. The other wise men were so hacked off, they got Chuck Norris removed from the bible. Mysteriously, they all later died of Roundhouse kick related injuries.

Xoan

Re: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs
« Reply #208 on: Jul 22, 2011, 01:01:14 PM »
Dwarf bsb can have runes if the dont have a runic standard. And they don't cost 300 points.

65 + 25(bsb) + 75 runes + 2 shield = 167
 WS6 T5 A3 3+ save before runes
they're pretty good

So I read this while I was at work and thought, wtf this person doesn't seem to know dwarfs at all.  I was about to post saying something just like that, not because I am rude, but because I know dwarfs very well and thought I was a 100% right.   However, I second thought my decision and waited to reply till I got home and could quote the rules properly.

I am glad I did, I saved an egg or two... however we are both partly wrong, so I do not feel totally bad.

Dwarf book Page 51 states, "One Thane in the army may carry the Battle Standard for +25 points.  This Thane cannot be the army's General.

The Thane carrying the Battle Standard cannot choose any extra weapons nor can he use a shield.  If a Thane is carrying the Battle Standard, he can have a runic standard (no points limit).  If he carries a runic standard he cannot carry any other runic item, but can have an Oath Stone".


So I was partly right and wrong...  If he does have a Runic Standard he can not have a shield, so he is a 4+ armor, and at best a 5+ ward save via the Rune of Guarding +30 pts.  He still only has 2 wounds though, but yes he is WS 6 and T5, however I have lost enough Dwarf BSBs to know they die like chumps.   Also if you were going for the runes with the most cost IE (Master Rune of Valaya +100) which is the rune that auto dispells all spells in 12 inches of the bearer and gives a +2 to dispell attempts, then like all dwarf items it can have a total of three runes on it...  You could have (Strollaz's Rune +55) which gives all dwarfs that are not gyrocopters a free move before the game, and then lastly (Rune of Slowness +50) which reduces the distance each unit that charges you moves.  Yes you could take that rune 3 times if you want, but you only take the highest of the 3 dice you roll, not all three dice added up.


So that could be a total of 205 pts in just Runes, plus 65 for the Thane, plus 25 for being a BSB, and if you wanted to just waste points imo you could have an Oath Stone on him for another +25 bringing an absolute max point total to 320 points.  I do not think saying that me saying Dwarf BSBs can cost nearly 300 points is far off, since I eluded to it being below 300 but above 200.

Now if you go with a normal Standard, you can be silly with defense.  Rune of Fire or Rune of Speed on your weapon so your weapon is either flaming or you have +1 initiative.  Master Rune of Gromril for a 1+ armor save that can not be modified better than that, and the Master Rune of Spite on the Talisman for +45 for a 4+ ward save.  Then the Dwarf BSB would be more moderate at 165 pts, or slightly more with an Oath Stone.  The reason why I would not want an Oath Stone is once it is placed you or your unit can never move, no other character can join your unit, and you must offer or accept with the character all challenges.  What it does is awesome, and I love Oath Stones, just not on my BSB.

Back in the day I ran the super high static CR combo with a unit of Ironbreakers and BSB.  It would give your unit a static CR of 9, and +1 CR to all friendly Dwarf units in 6 inches.  That is a discussion for what once was though, lol now that same unit combo is CR 8 and is not as cool.
8th ED W/L Record 6 (4 massacred)/1/1

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Davespaceman

Re: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs
« Reply #209 on: Jul 22, 2011, 03:35:49 PM »
I didn't think about the cost of one with runic standard  I never use them as it makes him too vunerable.

I always had the thane of pain as my bsb fury cleaving swiftness and stone.



I faced a gt style gunline wednesday the rune of slowness really slowed me down. makes a nice combined charge into a single charge or in my case a no charge.

our ogre clubs were vital though getting rid of HA saves when most dwarfs are now weilding GW really helped chop down the numbers.

rune of might is one to watch for made my toothcracker bulls get hit with S8 instead of S4

I'll try remember other things too and come back

The final point to remember is although he had  4 bolt throwers 2 grudge throwers 3 big locks of infantry and plenty of magic defence It was my ogres that won.  yay go me
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Blue Sun Ogres
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Chuck Norris was the fourth wise man and gave Jesus his favorite gift, a beard. The other wise men were so hacked off, they got Chuck Norris removed from the bible. Mysteriously, they all later died of Roundhouse kick related injuries.

Xoan

Re: Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs
« Reply #210 on: Jul 23, 2011, 08:43:58 AM »
The way I understand Runes of Slow is that if you take more than one, which can only be done on the BSB, you keep the highest result.  However, if you take it on the BSB X-number times, and once on the unit the BSB is in, you keep the highest result from the BSB, and add the units d6 as well to the number.


I am not sure anyone would do that, but it is not a horrible idea however it works with a gun line.  You can also take Bugman and his warrior or long beard rangers, which doesn't count toward the limit of Rangers, and a 2nd warrior or long beard unit.  If they are long beards, they can have a magic standard and are str 4 base.  With Thrown Axes that can be pretty nasty imo but it would cost a ton. heh
8th ED W/L Record 6 (4 massacred)/1/1

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