Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dwarfs

[just-josh]

Very nice summary As I am in a particularly generous mood, have a pte gnobbo for that handy post

JJ

[Kong Darkmeat]

Well thank you very much!  I definitely think if you build a list around these ideas, you can beat the little buggers!  Try a flying Tyrant and Gorgers for anti war machine, and the BSB and butcher leading your core bulls both with maw seeker. 

You could have a serious threat for killing war machines, and immune to panic with gut magic support bull units coming across the field.  Some big steps in the right direction for our books ability to handle shooting heavy lists indeed!  Can't wait to try them out 

[Thorgut Bonesmasher]

4. Good armor and wards from the new general magic items, along with wyrd stone necklace.  With the new armor options we can really build to take a beating at range.  Not to mention healing potions to help stymie cannon related Tyrant fatalities.  Oh and a flying tyrant would be a hell of a way to close in on war machines, zip right over their stout heads.

Just adding to the magic section of this, the 'Iron Curse icon' is another nice way to have a 6+ ward save to your character and unit against war machines!


Cheers,

Thorgut

[drear]

ironcurse icon is a definite must against a missile heavy army, stick it on a bsb imo, and stick him in a good combat unit.

give your ironguts the +1 movment banner, and march 14 on your first turn, turn 2 your in there with the charge, and can hopfully get your gorgers on at the same time.

[thenick18]

I played dwarves last night. Stomp fest! It was a solid victory, not point wise as there is no more solid victory, just a good win. My army was 2 units of 6 bulls, 1 unit of 6 guts, 1 unit of 4 leadies, 1 gorger that never showed up. My opponent had, 20 thunderers, organ gun, gyro, 2 units of 20 breakers, 10 warriors, and another 20 unit of something, more warriors maybe? Being able to go second was excellent as the dwarf player flew his gyro about 15 inches from my guts, I charged (max distance 18" my ogres were hungry) he fled, 3inches. CAught. Left me in range to charge the organ gun next turn.

Enough of the battle, my overall view of what works well vs these little buggers, my lead belchers blew them up. Str 4 AP really does a number on dwarves when you get enough shots. Very good for dropping rank CR that dwarves tend to have over us.

Fighting dwarves to me is like fighting mini ogres since they are the same s/t on a lot of models, however they have less attacks, I also was nervous with my guts to lose 1 or 2 per combat because of this. In my estimation, a unit of gutsis best served to hit the dwarves in the flank or rear to not allow those extra support attacks. Bulls with ogre club are our friends. Since the parry save is now a ward and not stacking with other saves, these dwarves are no longer 2+ in combat from the front, but 3+. Plus we attack first, dwarven I is 2!! Bulls with a club give the dwarves a 5+ save. The wounds are easy to come by to negate their SCR. Plus bull charge typically at str5 impact hits, and Str 4 stomps really add to what we can do. My unit of bulls with a std + BSB crushed a unit of 20 breakers. In the first round of combat half the unit was wiped out. I can't wait to get my giant together to be target of the shooting.

[Chito]

Nice report, but why do we attack first? Our initiative is 2 as well for the most part.

[thenick18]

Simultaneous, to me its pretty much the same thing, we still have the chance to use ALL our units' attacks before they take wounds and/or casualties.

[Chito]

That is the whole point, isn't it? Fair enough.

[Gralph Boarbiter]

The problem with having an anti-Dwarf tactica is that Dwarfs have become an incredibly varied force in 8th.  The Thorek gunline is still alive and well, but there are also some close-combat builds, and at least one or two "trick" builds that can completely demolish an unsuspecting opponent.

Against a gunline, I honestly don't know what to tell you.  6 Bolt Throwers, 3 Cannons, 3 Grudge Throwers, and 2 Organ Guns will likely wipe your army out before you can do anything of value.  It's just a plain bad match, since all those war machines are so much more effective than against single-wound infantry.  Ironcurse Icon can help here, but don't expect too much.

If your opponent is playing close combat-based Dwarfs, you're in better shape, but remember, they're going to hit like Ironguts.  Your average Dwarf is now packing a great weapon and "elites" are far more common in this type of list.  If you can, kill the BSB for the extra VPs and hope that your superior guts will pull through.  Scraplaunchers are actually fairly valuable here, even though they don't ignore armor--shields are less common in Dwarf armies now, and Killing Blow negates armor anyways.

The third type of list I'm seeing is a Ranger special.  Basically, there is a Runelord on Anvil (or Thorek, if you're nasty), a unit of Longbeard Rangers, perhaps another unit of Longbeard Rangers lead by Bugman, and quite a lot of Warmachines.  The Rangers get to start the game moving 12", plus 6" for the BSB with Strollaz's Rune, plus their march of 6", for a whopping 24" move.  Then, the Anvil lets them charge another 3+2d6 inches, all on T1.  This means that a substantial close combat unit can be flank charging your army before you have a chance to even move, which is nasty.  To make matters worse, the army will be taking quite a few war machines to whittle down what's not engaged, and has the AoD to slow you down.  I'm not entirely certain what Ogres can do to counter this type of list, although I'm willing to hear ideas.

[rocdocta]

How i deal with dwarves...

run 3 casters...2 slaughter masters and a butcher

1. stack buffs. 1 tough and 2 str on bulls with xhw
Most dwarves now have great weapons, so our guys go first and will do some serious damage. 8 bulls with a frontage of 4 means, if you get 2 str buffs off thats 16 str 6 attacks from the front alone + 12 support!! + 4 str 7 impact hits! that has to put some hurt on the dwarves! so really should do: 12 kills a turn from attacks + 4 from impact. 

with the tough buff, when the dwarves hit back its on 3s, and wounds on 4s. the average dwarf block is about 20-30. they get 14 attacks back hit on 3s = 9 hit, wound on 4s = 5 wounds.

2. stack 2 tough buffs, maybe regen on iron guts
this way the dwarves are wounding on 5s! whilst we wound on 2s.

sure the above will probably get dispelled, but until they do, think of the carnage!

3. Run 2 gorgers to tie up their cannon.

4. use the thunder mace. at str 4 (OK rulebook) it is just too good not to.

[Gralph Boarbiter]

Don't expect any of your Butcher's buffs to last beyond your turn.  Dwarfs still get power dice and will likely have anywhere from +4 to +6 to dispel, meaning that it's ridiculously easy to get rid of all those spells during their own magic phase.

In fact, I wouldn't even bother casting Toothcracker or Trollguts, as they're far more likely to actually hurt your Butcher than they are to help your unit.

[Lantis]

I'd hate to break the news to you, but to run 2 Slaughtermasters, it'd be 2400pts if they and the Tyrant were all naked. Naked lords rarely do well against cannonfire and Dwarf combat lords are overpowered, with 125 points of runic gear available. Kit them up and you'd be at 2900pts

Also, even with 3 casters, there is still only up to 12 power dice to go around (11 with that banner of theirs), barring a few one trick ponies.

Gralph: On the Ranger list, perhaps leaving Gnoblars on the army's flanks will give the T1 chargers a less juicy target. Sure, they'll butcher the greenies with Hatred, but a large enough block should at least allow to reform and prepare. If they'd rather get mixed in with ogres, at least they'll be charging your front arc, letting you get all up with your bad Stompin self.

[Gralph Boarbiter]

Gralph: On the Ranger list, perhaps leaving Gnoblars on the army's flanks will give the T1 chargers a less juicy target. Sure, they'll butcher the greenies with Hatred, but a large enough block should at least allow to reform and prepare. If they'd rather get mixed in with ogres, at least they'll be charging your front arc, letting you get all up with your bad Stompin self.

You have to run quite large units of Gnoblars to maintain Steadfast if this is your plan, and if you do that, the Ranger Horde gets more attacks.  A 40-Dwarf Ranger unit will kill about 17 Gnoblar Fighters a turn, effectively taking 4 ranks off your unit.  If you're not running 45+ in that unit, prepare to lose Steadfast, get run down, and have the Rangers pursue into something a little juicier.

So yeah, maybe 50 Gnoblar Fighters on each flank would be useful,

[Enkiel]

I'm facing Dwarft this afternoon, and frankly, i'm scared. We got better in 8th, but so did they.

All my character have Wardsave, so at least they got a chance to survive cannon ball.

With some mathammer, i realized that Bulls can win vs just about any core, so i have to hope he throws some melee at me.

Outside of that, i'm clueless on which direction to go about this fight.

[Ollyfont]

Obviously any advice I give arrives one day too late Enkiel, but I'm curious how you did. 

I've fought two battles versus Dwarves (same player) now in 8th.  The first one I wasn't terribly well prepared (it was just a fun game) and he rolled phenomenally well on his artillery dice.  He won rather handily and proceeded to do just as well versus our Skaven player in his next battle.  The second game I had changed my army around a bit by adding some warmachine hunting units so hopefully I would do better.  First off though, I managed to defeat a Horde of Hammerers and run down the accompanying Lord.  My Tyrant got locked into a challenge with his Lord.   In the interim, my two ranks of bulls literally annililated his Hammerers.  Between impact hits, regular attacks (hand weapon) and stomp attacks it was gruesome.  It helped that he was striking after me due to Great Weapons.  I also elected to use my ironfits to save several wounds.  I'm going to be trying out a Horde of Ogres this Friday.  Less effective were warmachine huntiner units.  These included two Hunters,  two Gorgers and unit of Trappers.  I had equipped one of my Hunters with Mastadon armor which worked well for me in 7th.  The other I equipped with a 4+ wardsave as well as a 2+ save versus flaming attacks (the dwarf player I was playing likes to put runes of fire on his warmachines).   Unfortunately, the battle was corner to corner and I had a tough time getting them around his big block units, so they never went after his warmachines as I intended.  Both Gorgers came in behind his warmachines and were in position to charge the following turn, but he got lucky and killed them each with a single cannon shot on two sucessive turns.  The Trappers probably did the best in that they tied up a warmachine for several turns (survived the first round of fire) and then eventually lost in combat to the crew.  I'm looking forward to when he doesn't get so lucky versus the Gorgers and when I do a better job of positioning my Hunters.  In my own defense on the positioning, the scenario required I set up all my forces first, so he was able to see where the Hunters were positioned. 

Anyway, aside from using large blocks of Ogres and ward saves (as you're already doing) my advice against Dwarves is to hunt warmachines.  Hunters suitably equipped should work (if you position them better than I did), as should Gorgers and Trappers.   

[Enkiel]

i won, but warmachine definately hurted me quite a bit (lost 4 IG to one cannon shot).

what i notice that is a good trick, is to sacrifice one bull unit. Basically, send it straight for the Warmachines, that way there's just no chance he'll ignore it, and if they're lucky, they'll survive long enough to save the rest of the army.

I didnt tailor my list, so i still had a Slaughtermaster and runemaw. casting the 2D6 S2 spell on warmachine is a good move imho, as you get some shot at killing the crew (need 6 anyway vs anything, might as well try vs the unit that will hurt the most). also, Strenght buff and Regen are nice to have, even if they only last 1 turn. And to add to the fun, i had the regain-life-sword on my Slaughtermaster, which basically saved his life twice.

They're not that hard to kill, but their armor+Parry save sure can get annoying.

[eyescrossed]

I thought that Cannon Balls stop when they hit Monstrous Infantry.

[Slaughterman]

only if they don't do enough wounds to kill the model... as the cannon does d6 wounds.
if the model doesn't die, damage does not go on to the second rank; if the model does die, then the next one in line takes d6 wounds, repeat ad naseum, or until you're nauseated at losing a whole file of ogres!!!!

[Thuryon]

Hello everyone, newly arrived Pirate Tyrant here.

Had my first game using Ogres yesterday against Dwarves and it wasn't pretty...

3 Stone Throwers, one cannon and one Organ Gun later (with a single misfire and a single "non-hit") and about 70% of my forces were dead when the remaining 30% went against blocks of 30 Dwarves with great weapons... 

The "solution" I will attempt on my next game is this: Tyrant - Spangleshard and Arabyan Carpet (I also gave him a few other things but those two items are the most important ones).

The idea is that he can charge Warmachines on the 2nd turn and is himself almost impervious against Warmachine fire (2+ "save" in most cases).

What do my fellow Tyrants think of this?

[thenick18]

I do like it, but I'm also the type of player who likes to always have an all comers list.

[rocdocta]

due to dwarves succumbing to the lure of great weapons, i am running naked horde 15 bulls with a butcher and tyrant and bruier bsb. i go first and with impact hits + 30 or so bull attacks + dudes wipe out most of the enemy unit. it has the bodies and that means serious staying  power.

[Tanksie]

use your maneuverability and the fact that every ogre unit is an elite unit to pick on the opponents core units like the warriors,longbeards, thunderers and sometimes miners/slayers

if you get rid of these units theres not many units left. especialy if your leadbelching hammerers/ironbreakers and yheteeing and ghorgering his artillery.

[Komone]

Something to remember about cannons too if they can only kill 1 Ogre per rank, roll to wound VS each one and wounds do not pass over to other ogres if they roll over 3. So good odds of not doing too much damage hopefully but also good odds of damage sadly too.

K

[Steffen Jørgensen]

So I'm back in here.
Played a bit 8th with Ogres and tomorrow I'll be facing dwarfs for the first time with ogres in a 2500 pts game.

The friend I'm playing against is a 'fair-player', and do not like the idea about a massive shooting dwarf army, so luckily for me I don't fear that much shooting.

My army as it is now:

- Tyrant w. extra hw, Spangelshard  & Armour of destiny
- Bruiser BSB w. banner of discipline & extra hw
- Butcher w. two tooth gnoblars, Halfling cookbook & skullmantle
- Butcher w. two tooth gnoblars, crown of command & ironcurse icon

- Two gorgers

- Two times three leadbelchers
- Three Yhetees

- 10 Bulls w. full command & look out gnoblar
- 12 Bulls w. full command & look out gnoblar
- Two times 27 Gnoblars w. groinbiter

The tyrant, bruiser and butcher w. crown of command with the 10 bulls. The last butcher with the 12 bulls.
The two units sticks close together. Perhaps with one unit leadbelchers in between.
The banner of discipline gives my tyrant LD 10, which can be used by the units close to him, and his own unit is stubborn because of the crown on the butcher.
Both bullunits is to get in cc quickly, while the gnoblars is to try to get into a flank or just make some confusion.

Yhetees and gorgers for hunting smaller units, warmachines and his anvil(if any).
The leadbelchers will support the hunting units and/or loose op big blocks of dwarfs before cc.

I want my butchers to deliver buff spells in cc, so I picked the tooth gnoblars for boosting casting before and in cc. The skullmantle is thought as a funny add'on for the Braingobbler spell. Halfling cookbook for keeping one of them alive longer time.

Any obvious flaws?

Thanks

[Sandals]

Can't have both the mantle and cookbook I'm afraid, they're both Arcane Items. There is very little protection on your BSB, consider going for the Ironfist rather than the AHW.

Do your leadbelchers have musicians? if not, I would drop a champion somewhere to get them. Swift Reform is one of the few things that makes Leadies useful.

Tooth gnoblars really aren't worth that much anymore. You have to use them before rolling the dice, so it's not like they can prevent a LoC.

Other than that, it's down to personal choice. If it's a list you like, stick with it.