Archive - Ogre Kingdoms vs. Dark Elves

[kspen]

I love your last para Rotmaw, made me chuckle. Yes many armies have T4 core and always hit us on 3s. Point B = 

[spartacus]

Just played a game against them couple days ago, with dark elves it depends on your list but very rock-paper-scizzors.

I played a big Deathstar that game, was hard to find anything to point it at but with Dark elves, just stop there darkness something spell that gives powerdice, move fast to keep out of range of thier fast cav and scouts, and make sure you deploy with the kind of set up you want because they usually outnumber us in units and can deploy how they like if you try to deploy to them.

And they usually spend way to much effort killing gnoblars and trappers then they should which is good for us (must be a T3 thing).

just be careful of combo charges from them and you should do fine, not fun game if they play cat and mouse for 6 turns though....

[RaivenOgre]

Like what Sparticus said be VERY carefull of combo charges.  Watch out for those beefed up cold ones nights,Pegasus lord and those annoying Hydras.  I've fought 4 before  .    Cauldrons can be irratating also if your opponent just waits for you to come at you while they beef the crap out of everything.

What works for me is Gorgers to Tie up Crossbows elves, at least horde or two of Gnoblars (30-40 is good),2x3 Lead Belchers units to kill those Harbies (herbies ) /Witches, Have like 8 Ironguts with Runemaw banner and or include your lord and prey that all your butches get there magic off.

Oh and watch out for Purple sun and Pit of shades!

[Enkiel]

So far in the past 2 weeks, i've played twice Dark Elf, both time using Death Magic against me. there's not much that can be done against Purple sun except, maybe, let everything pass but this spell... i've lost 12 bulls in a single pass, and 8 IG in another.

Small units can help reduce the high death tool of those spells, but i dont think anything under 6 Bulls/IG will stand much chance against DE. After all, your chance is in the 2nd round of combat, when their wounds inflicted start to go down.

If he does not go for Death, Shadow is even worst. MindRazor can reduce any unit to dust in a single round of combat. I'm personally an abuser of that spell when i play my Dark Elf, so believe me, it can beat any units without any problem. It's another spell very important to keep dispel scroll for (and of course, dispel dice).


Overall, i think our best defense against DE, is to maximize our magic phase, so they MUST try and dispel some of our buff in their round of magic. If they are forced to do that, you have much more chance to reduce their offensive spells. No DE want to fight Ogres with regen (well, except when an hydra breath is nearby, but that one only breath at Ini 2, and against that one unit with Fire banner).

Scraplauncher is a very nice way to reduce the usual lvl4 mage bunker (also known as Power Dice Pool). 2 for maximum chance of reducing it quickly.


that's pretty much what i've come to expect when facing DE.

[Seabo76]

Typical local DE build at 3000pts...
Lvl4 Shadow
Lvl2 Shadow
Cauldron
30-40ish Witches-sometimes 2 units
30 ASF Banner Black Guard (w/HagBSB)
40-50 Corsairs w/Frenzy Banner
Crossbows....lots of bleepin crossbows...

Have faced that twice. Each time it ended with my Heroes bravely thwacking away before the inevitable IF cast of Mindrazor on the Witches or Corsairs and its all over

Do you think the Thundermace is worth taking? I have mulled it over but the one hit roll is kinda scary...

[datalink7]

Ok, I just got destroyed by the following list and have no idea how I would fight it.

Unkillable Lord (Pendent, Crown of Command) on Black Dragon
Hero on Manticore with Ring of Hotek
Level 2 with tome (extra spell) on Dark Pegasus

5 Dark Riders with XBows
5 Dark Riders with XBows
5 Dark Riders with XBows
5 Dark Riders with XBows
5 Dark Riders with XBows
5 Dark Riders with XBows
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

5 Shades with Assassin (Rending Stars, Manbane)

War Hydra
War Hydra

This was literally my turn.

1. Reform Unit so Butcher/Slaughtermaster faces something
2. Try to panic and throw 2d6 Strength 2 shots at something

I killed one unit of harpies and one unit of dark riders.  He never killed my main unit becuse he never engaged it.  Killed everything else.  I even managed to maneuver so I got a charge on his general, but he just fled and rallied next turn.

[Seabo76]

That list used to be brutal back in 7th but now? Not so much.
I would love to take that on.
Tyrant with Flying Carpet, Mawseeker, Fencers Blades or ASF Sword, Pigeon Plucker's Amulet and a Charmed or Enchanted Shield if you can get it in (not sure on points total there)...would just paste those pansy little heroes :p. Go after the Sorceress first and then go to town on the Dark Riders. Highly doubtful that he would go near you with his Lord as even the Dragon would ned 4s to Hit and 4s to wound to which you would have a 4+ Ward. Unkillable Lord? Fine, kill his mount and he's pretty much screwed
Take a unit or 2 of Gnoblars to get some Rhinoxes and some units of 9-12 Bulls w/SM or Butchers and you should easily box him in. 
Sure there's a lot of shooting but it needs 5s to wound at base T. You aren't going to be taking that many casualties per turn
Its the huge high Init Infantry blocks that scare me.

[datalink7]

That list used to be brutal back in 7th but now? Not so much.
I would love to take that on.
Tyrant with Flying Carpet, Mawseeker, Fencers Blades or ASF Sword, Pigeon Plucker's Amulet and a Charmed or Enchanted Shield if you can get it in (not sure on points total there)...would just paste those pansy little heroes :p. Go after the Sorceress first and then go to town on the Dark Riders. Highly doubtful that he would go near you with his Lord as even the Dragon would ned 4s to Hit and 4s to wound to which you would have a 4+ Ward. Unkillable Lord? Fine, kill his mount and he's pretty much screwed
Take a unit or 2 of Gnoblars to get some Rhinoxes and some units of 9-12 Bulls w/SM or Butchers and you should easily box him in. 
Sure there's a lot of shooting but it needs 5s to wound at base T. You aren't going to be taking that many casualties per turn
Its the huge high Init Infantry blocks that scare me.

Ok, I guess I should have specified.  How do you beat it with a typical tournament list?  Your typical tournament list won't be running a Tyrant on a Flying Carpet with Pigeon Plucker.  Besides, the dragon lord could probably easily take him down by himself anyway.  You have 6 strength 6 attacks with hatred from the dragon and 4 strength 6 attacks with hatred from the Lord.

Also, the sorceress was always hiding behind the dragon or the manticore.  I had two Scraplaunchers but one died first turn so it never got to fire when he did pit of shades on it (irresistible).  The other died to the assassin in two turns from shooting.  The one shot off it got from me missed.

At that point I had no shooting outside of gnoblar units with an 8" range.  I don't see how I could have boxed him in when the flying just jumps over my units to the backside or away from them, and dark riders with swift reform can move through your gaps single file and get behind you.

The only thing I can think of now that I've slept on it was to deploy in the corner with the scrap launchers behind and try to fire at him with those and the magic missile in the shooting phase.  Might have worked.  But tryiing to box him in is impossible due to his vastly superior movement.

[Seabo76]

S6 on the Lord? I take it he had other magic items then..
Against the Dragon and Manticore you would get 4+Ward thanks to PigeonPluckers Amulet. And you would still have a save vs the Lord even if he was S6. 
Just saying it could work but only against an army like this in a one off game. 
And I'm not thinking any Dark Elves in their right mind would take an army like that to a tourney...
There are way too many armies (HighElves, Chaos, Daemons, Dwarfs, most Empire builds) that would just thrash it.
If you're going to just a game night bring a couple lists. I generally like to make all-comer types and don't specifically gear armies to one specific build but if he wants to play that way teach him a lesson

[Mercules]

He never killed my main unit becuse he never engaged it.  Killed everything else.

Let me guess, you were running an Ogre Deathstar? MMU might have served you better. Instead of one unit he can easily avoid and several smaller units he can easily kill, MMU with the right mix of characters means he can't just keep running.

This is one of the things I keep telling people they are going to run into if they keep playing strictly Deathstar. That appears to be what the army is designed to counter. It is probably even more brutal against armies with big infantry blocks. Then again those armies tend to have things like cannons(but I bet there is a High Elf crying somewhere after running into this).

[datalink7]

He never killed my main unit becuse he never engaged it.  Killed everything else.

Let me guess, you were running an Ogre Deathstar? MMU might have served you better. Instead of one unit he can easily avoid and several smaller units he can easily kill, MMU with the right mix of characters means he can't just keep running.

This is one of the things I keep telling people they are going to run into if they keep playing strictly Deathstar. That appears to be what the army is designed to counter. It is probably even more brutal against armies with big infantry blocks. Then again those armies tend to have things like cannons(but I bet there is a High Elf crying somewhere after running into this).

I run a small deathstar.  No horde or anything.  10 Ironguts with 3 characters.

I also have another unit of 8 bulls with 1 character.

2 Scraplaunchers
Giant
30 Gnoblars
8 Trappers

After further analysis I think it would have been best to just stick everything in a corner.  He would have had trouble killing off anything entirely without getting into my charge range.  I could have kept the Scraplaunchers alive by putting them behind my units on a hill that was in the corner.  Instead I was trying to run around and box him in, which didn't work at all.

[Gutlord]

what point lvl?

i always consindered MMU being units of 9ish and having at least 3(multiple, not a couple).
the giant alone could free up the points.

[datalink7]

what point lvl?

i always consindered MMU being units of 9ish and having at least 3(multiple, not a couple).
the giant alone could free up the points.

2500 points.

It was almost the same list I took here:

http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=19181.0

Except I took a Tenderizer Tyrant build.  I went 2-1 in the local tournament, only losing to the Dark Elf list.  But it was so lopsided I was a bit frustrated when I got home and posted here.  Now I'm hungry to play the list again because I think with different tactics I would have a decent chance.

[Seabo76]

That's the spirit!
I try to include at least 3 Bull units and Ironguts (you just have to have Ironguts)
Not bad on going 2-1 though. Grats on that

[Xoan]

I believe that your best bet to defend against DE magic is to run a SM and a block of whatever you choose guts or bulls w/ the runemaw banner or use greatskull have them in two seperate units so that way if she targets either unit it can be deferred to the one with greatskull.  Lots of fun to watch a DE sorc blow herself up or the group of lil xbowmen she's sitting with. 

I am not sure that the Rune Maw works that way with the Greatdkull...

  The Rune Maw says this, "When a spell is successfully cast by an enemy spellcaster against the unit bearing the Rune Maw.  Roll a D6.  On roll of a 2+ the controlling player may  redirect the spell against another friendly unit within 6" of the unit with the Rune maw Standard."  Page 65 Ogre Book

The Great Helm says this, "Any spellcaster that targets the character with the Greatskull, or the unit he is with will miscast on any roll of..."  There was an errata on the roll portion.  page 63 Ogre book

IMO there is a difference between redirecting a spell that has been cast, and a spellcaster targeting a unit with an item in it.  in my opinion the difference is one can happen if the spell never even gets cast, and the other happens once if the spell is cast, and is then not dispelled, and is in range.

I do not think it is over powered, and I hope they make it so with the new book.

...

One thing to remember is that skirmisher are not the same as they were last ed, now how a unit changes formation is different, and there is that 1 inch rule. so a space of less than 3 inches means it is too tight as far as I have read.  You can change from single file to 5 wide all you want, but you have to get the middle of the unit through that space and an inch past it before you can reform it again.

Once again I think  it comes down to we almost have a requirement of Gorgers and Trappers so we can create an bad situations for super fast fragile stuff.

I personally think a mixture of bunkering up with a scrap or two firing each turn, and then rushing when they get too close is our best option with the tools we have atm.

[von Awful]

Typical local DE build at 3000pts...
Lvl4 Shadow
Lvl2 Shadow
Cauldron
30-40ish Witches-sometimes 2 units
30 ASF Banner Black Guard (w/HagBSB)
40-50 Corsairs w/Frenzy Banner
Crossbows....lots of bleepin crossbows...

Have faced that twice. Each time it ended with my Heroes bravely thwacking away before the inevitable IF cast of Mindrazor on the Witches or Corsairs and its all over

Do you think the Thundermace is worth taking? I have mulled it over but the one hit roll is kinda scary...

@seabo76
there is a max of 20 on the blackguards, so not a legal list. Also why the hell the ASF banner on them as the Black guards have one of the highest Initiative RnF models can get and allready reroll all their attacks(to hit) due to their "elite" rule... apart from that it is not a bad list, where does he puts his sorceress? without them the only real threat are the cauldron and the witches IMHO. (So crush them and the cauldron, and avoid the witches) Corsairs are not that great on their own...

[Seabo76]

My bad. I actually meant the Executioners. They really benefit from the ASF Banner. I did figure my way around this list and can reliably deal with it.
I agree with the Deathstar of around 10 or so+Chars and some smaller units. Seems to work best.