Ogre Kingdoms 8th Edition Army Ratings/Buying Guide

[mcsheehy]

Hey Morfiend
Yes the chances are 1/6 for losing you caster. However for what gruts sickle brings to the game for ogres, I believe it is a necessary risk.
In that case the Hellheart description is even more misleading as we really have a 1/3 or 1/2 chance of it doing nothing rolling on a 1-3. They are some the most powerful Items in our book, yes they do require a gamble but casting at level 7 for a couple of phases will allow you to dominate the casting phase on those turns.
Losing your SM on T1 is inevitably going to happen as this game is all about averages and luck, it will happen sooner or later and that is something you need to accept when playing Gruts Sickle. It is not necessary to use it every magic phase (I do) and 1/6 chance of losing your wizard every game is not unheard of. You have the same chance of failing your LoS every turn. I have lost my wizard to miscasts on turn 1 several times but never lost anything to gruts sickle.
Every time you cast there is an element of risk and adding gruts sickle just makes it more of a gamble to cast every turn.
I don't believe the description of the item is misleading, anyone who uses the item knows its a gamble. If you play with gruts sickle and use it in every casting phase you are just tempting the dice gods even more They are very rarely on my side anyway, but there is more chance to make your wizard useless through a miscast than the Gruts sickle. It just adds another element of risk to the game
 
Chris

[mcsheehy]

Added - Strengths + Weaknesses
Added BrB lores review
 
Chris

[Theik]

Correct me if I'm entirely wrong, but I don't think you can make your battle standard bearer "tanky". A BSB isn't allowed to take any magic items, so at best you're looking at a heavy armor + ironfist for a 4+ armor and 6+ ward.

[mcsheehy]

You can take magic items so long as you don't take a magical standard
 
Chris

[Theik]

You can take magic items so long as you don't take a magical standard
 
Chris

Woops, silly me. You're entirely right!

I am so used to taking runemaw on my BSB that I completely forgot that you can take a normal standard and still use your magic items.

[mcsheehy]

Don't run big buses myself, so no use for a runemaw
 
Besides... its purple sun I worry about in my meta and it doesn't affect it sadly
 
Chris

[mcsheehy]

Having recently added the Weaknesses + Strengths, BrB lores etc.
 
I was wondering... what would the Ogre Kingdoms community like to see in the next few posts?
If you have any ideas, or changes you feel would benefit the community as a general, then please voice your opinion and I'll see what I can do!
 
Chris

[LatteOkapi]

Favourable/Unfavourable matchups. This might require some digging into tournament result data but a listing of all potential opponents and the chances of a victory. I know there are lots of variables that cannot possibly be accounted for (It is Warhammer afterall) but it is still possible to see which armies we can beat more often than not.

[mcsheehy]

Your right LatteOKapi
 
That would be a good addition to the guide, and you are also right in the fact it will be a lot of work lol
As for the Variables, the reason I have avoided such things at the moment is the new army books and the ones that will be our soon could/will change the tables dramatically. However there are ways around that
 
Ill start digging tomorrow and see what I can find!
 
Chris

[Gralph Boarbiter]

Also remember that the lore review is very generic and not really applicable to Ogres in many ways.

For a start, I believe the reviewer severely underestimated Iceshard Blizzard and Pann's Impenetrable Pelt. Likewise, I believe the Fire lore is entirely overrated, particularly with the lack of autowounding. A bit more in-depth look of what works and doesn't work for Ogres would be in order, I believe.

[psychichobo]

True - I can't see many Ogre players going near Purple Sun. That thing could backfire far more horribly than The Maw ever could. Plus, the lore of Fire spells have to be assessed from the point of view of a Firebelly.

[mcsheehy]

I agree with the above statements and I will amend the lore reviews to show how they best effect ogres instead of a general review.
 
At the moment I am sifting through the "favourable match ups" from different tournament results... Its very variable lol.
1 tournament had 3 ogre players attend and 2 won drawing 1st place with 100% win rate, another had 7 ogre players with almost 100% lose rates against the same armies!? This is going to take a wee while
 
As for the lore reviews I will leave it as it is for the time being, until I have the time to adjust it. If anyone would like to help, feel free!
 
Chris

[rothgar13]

A word of advice on that front, as I have written up similar reviews for other armies - I suggest you look at the lists involved more so than the results, think about what how you would expect the game to go, then compile the win/loss results to confirm or deny your hypothesis. It helps control for player skill a bit, which is definitely a factor in tournament play.

[psychichobo]

If it still looks a little odd, consider enquiring about battle reports too - I've seen a tournament report with the Warriors of Chaos book where he suffered rather badly due to losing his Lvl 4 Daemon Prince in nearly half his games due to miscasts. Similarly, I've turned the tide of two games recently by making the snake eyes break test.

Unlikely results seem, well, unlikely, but in tournaments where there's only, say, 2 Ogre players, that's enough to change the assessment, particularly if the army list wasn't conventional - blame can go in the wrong place.

(Though this is probably asking a lot, so it might be worth gathering some general opinions too from other sites on facing Ogres).

[mcsheehy]

Thank you to both Rothgar and Psycho
 
I have resorted to looking on other websites tacticas for other armies. Some of them cover "vs Ogres" and the good ones talk about countering certain units and how to deal with them etc.
As for the tournament results, Its far too varied and it will need constant updating. I don't mind keeping this thread updated for ogre players but I already work over 60 hours a week and have a social life on top of that. I will more than happily post links to certain tournament results, however I will not type up and hypothesise about the results since the same lists do well and fail against the same match ups. As I have just proved in my last 2 games. Ran against TK yesterday, both played the same list twice. Game 1 I tabled him in T4. Game 2 my gut star ran off the board before seeing combat same with my Mfc...  (I was a sad ogre)
 
The game is too dependent on luck, however I am happy to do a write up on what units counter what in certain armies. This list will still change and will still need updating etc, however it is less likely and it is just theoretical. It is by no means written in stone, Im sure somewhere 10 ghouls have beaten a hoard of Ironguts in combat, as unlikely as it may seem im sure someone has seen it happen
 
As for the information, I will fill out the basis of the post at some point over the weekend. However I will need input from more experienced ogre players to make sure I am giving out correct information on each unit's counter etc.
 
Eg -
 
Iron gut -
High strength attacks, ASL, M6, Ld8, A3.
Counter to - Knights, Heavy armoured troops, Monsters, High Toughness opponents.
 
Obviously when I come to write the actual post I will go into a little more detail, but you get the idea
 
Chris

[Skorag]

Chris

This is just fantastic. I'm working on a second army at the moment and planning to come back to my beloved ogres soon. This will be really helpful in shaping my collection as I add the 8th edition units to my army. It will be invaluable to all those who are just starting out too.

Would love to see this stickied. Well done on the article, found it really enjoyable.

[mcsheehy]

Thank you for your kind words Skorag
 
Glad it has helped, however it is still a work in progress!
 
Chris

[mcsheehy]

Sorry everyone.
 
I have put this thread on hold this week, had too much on my plate this week.
 
The week coming I will be working on this as much as possible to meet the requests from the Ogre Stronghold. I have contemplated adding in a painting tutorial for budding hobbyists, if you would find this helpful could you please let me know? In the mean time I will work over the information I already have and amend it so it is an easier read and more suited to Ogre Kingdoms.
If you have any feedback or changes you would like to see please post back and let me know!
 
Chris

[mcsheehy]

Update -
 
Ogre Painting added.
 
Byronic's Tutorials list has also been added.
 
Chris

[Shimian]

Hey Chris,

fantastic work! As a fairly new ogre player, it really helped me a lot!

If you plan on further additions, how about some sort of generic lists against other armies? Something like "When going against Skaven, you better take this, this and that while leaving that, that and that at home." Even though there is more than one viable list against each army, a little guideline would help especially the less experienced players like me. I know that we got tacticas against each other army in the forum, but those threads are filled with small informations and a lot of questions, which makes them really hard to read when you are looking for some quick information.

Regards from Germany
Sebastian

[Zippy Wonderdog]

Unfavorable match ups is kind of too specific. For example a large block of any sort of troop choice with great weapons can be bad news for ogres if not handled right. Anything that equal or exceeds the toughness of a basic ogre really.

[mcsheehy]

Hey guys.
 
I'm glad it was of some use to you Sebastian
I love the idea of favourable match ups etc, but like Zippy has said it is far too variable. For instance, if I advise you to take Iron guts vs Warriors of Chaos (assuming they take sword and shield warriors) and he take massive hoards of Marauders instead, then you would be better served by ogres. If you get me.
There are too many viable choices for each army and different set ups, it would be impossible for me to do a list of favourable match ups for any army However I am going to be writing a "How to build your army" post Once I've finished re-writing the BRB Lores so they are more suited towards Ogres instead of just a general review
 
If there is anything else you would like to see, please let me know!
 
Chris

[Auere]

Great post! Really - love it!

I also have around the 30 games with ogres on my back, and and I would like to give some comments on your ratings from what I have experienced:

Firebelly:
Definately deserves and A of some kind. Look at how popular they are - and for good reason! My firebellies have CONSISTANTLY put in top performances in my game. Even at level 1, you are garanteed to get a really good and versatile spell, the fireball. Fireballs are pivotal in the late game to get those vital VPs of lone characters and diminished units. On top of that firebellies come with ward against fire and flaming attacks - nothing big, but still nice. The last big is ofcourse the breath weapon, which packs immense punch in close combat. You make all too little off it, and dont even mention how absolutely devastating it is as a shooting attack. You can march up your firebelly 12 inches and completely DEVASTATE an enemy horde. I have killed well over 15 models in one go several times!! It also combines great with the hellheart. Level 1 firebelly with hellheart is a perfect A+.

Bulls and Ironguts:
I think they are a B+ and an A. Definately needs a notch up. They are probably amongst the best core units in the gamei biggish units.

Mawseeker:
Kinda useless with stupidity and on 40 points. You dont see it often around. More like a B.

Gruts Sickle:
Its a liabelity and even costs a huge lot. I would prefer a power stone any time, but I know some people swear to the sickle. I dont think its an A, though.


My 2 cents. Apart from that, I think you got the rest spot on.

[mcsheehy]

Hey guys. Sorry about being inactive for so long!
Had tonnes of work and loads of new clients
 
Anyway, now I can finally get back to finishing this off!!!
 
Auere, while I agree with most of your points.
 
The Firebelly, yes I agree it is a VERY strong choice in "most" match-ups, however the Butcher is also very powerful with the right combination of lores and units. The reason they will both remain ranked the same is because neither is more powerful than the other 100% of the time. They are both situational models and points dependent. Butcher offers more flexibility in the army, while the Firebelly offers only the "fire" lore and costing a little bit more. The 4+ ward against flaming attacks is negligible as you can get a 10pt item for 2+. I will leave the rankings the same, but I may re-word some of the entries in the future
 
Ironguts + Bulls are very strong choices for core, some of the best in WHFB! However they are victims of their own success! They are tough, hard hitting and well... tough lol. However they have a very low weapon skill and Initiative, If they were say WS4 or I3 then they would be an A easily. As tough as they are they have a few weaknesses that are fairly easily exploited, that is the reason I have left them at B and B+. Again like the Butcher/FB comment they are situational units, both brining their own strengths and weaknesses. The Ironguts bring strength and a hefty point cost, the Bulls bring pretty much the same, just a little less of each Compare these to most core units out there they would easily be an A, but against the rest of the ogre book I have bumped them down to a B so as not to show clear "favouritism" of one over the other. The choice is for the reader to decide, If I marked them A + B then it would make one look a lot more favourable than the other and this is what I want to avoid. The units are situational and ogres work better than IG's in some match ups and vice versa. They are situation dependant and up to the reader to decide
 
Maw seeker, I almost agree with your comment The 40pt price tag is costly, however the Stupidity is negligible with your Ld9 and BsB. The +1 to Toughness is the most popular Big name out there and compared to the rest of the names available it gets an A! Would I like to see some changes in the errata like a 10pts reduction. Hell yes... but its not going to happen. IMHO it is a must take on any Tyrant
 
Gruts Sickle, now the difficult one. The rating is slightly tainted with personal favour... I love the gruts sickle in <2000pts game. It lets me run 1 mage (and 1 caddy) and dominate the phase with +7 to casting! Even dwarves struggle against that. The item is situational and is a complete gamble Just like our Hellheart. While the Power Stone allows you to get two extra dice in one magic phase, Gruts allows you +2 to casting in Every one. The extra power dice also count towards irresistible, something we want to avoid as ogres. (for the most part) I am one of those people you mentioned that swear by the item, I never run a SM without it because it has saved my magic phase all too many time. Yes it has back fired from time to time, but I knew it was a gamble when I put it in my army list. The item can be rate from A to D... same as our Hellheart. When it works its an A, when it fails I will expect a lot of comments here blaming me
 
Chris