The Ogre Stronghold - Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms

Author Topic: My house rules - over the top?  (Read 423 times)

reynorpadilla

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My house rules - over the top?
« on: Feb 08, 2010, 08:34:06 AM »
I had a discussion with some of my buddies today. One of them said, "There is nothing wrong with the Ogre Kingdoms book that couldn't be fixed with a simple FAQ."

So I wrote this up -- I am proposing them as house rules for our gaming group.

Ogre Kingdoms House Rules

Ogre Clubs are handweapons in all respects.

All melee weapons, when wielded by Ogres, are Armor Piercing.

Gutplates confer +1 to armor save and come standard on Tyrants, Bruisers, Hunters, Bulls, Ironguts, Leadbelchers and Maneaters. Butchers and Slaughtermasters may not use Gutplates. In addition, non-Ogre models may not use Gutplates.

Bulls receive Light Armor and Ironfists at no cost. Heavy Armor is a 4-point upgrade per model.

Ironfists are both additional hand weapons (conferring +1 attack) and shield (conferring +1 to armor save in both shooting and close combat) for a total of 4+ in combat (ex. Light Armor + Ogre Club + Shield) and 5+ in shooting. They come standard with Bulls. They are a 5-point-per-model option for Tyrants, Bruisers, Hunters and Maneaters.

Bull Charge requires no minimum range.

Ogres receive Rank Bonuses at 3 models wide.

When Ogres Outnumber their opponent in combat, they are Unbreakable (should this be Stubborn instead?).

Leadbelchers do not have to spend a turn reloading their Cannons. They may Move and Shoot.

Leadbelchers may take Heavy Armor at 4 points per model.

Hunters may Move and Shoot. They may take Light Armor for 3 points per model or Heavy Armor for 4 points per model.

Gnoblar Trappers may Hitch a Ride with a Hunter and deploy (but not move or charge) after the Hunter's movement is complete. After deployment, they may shoot. Fighters may not shoot from the shoulders of their Ogre masters.

Gnoblar Fighters may Hitch a Ride with any ranked Ogre unit. Once they disembark from their gut-bellied masters, they deploy as a ranked unit on whichever side and facing whichever direction the Ogre player chooses. After deployment, Gnoblar Fighters may not move or charge until the Ogre player's following turn. They may, however, shoot. Gnoblars may not be deployed as a charge reaction and may only be deployed during the Ogre player's movement phase. On the player's following turn, Gnoblar units may move as normal. Gnoblars may not shoot from the shoulders of their masters.

Hunters may opt to take 1-4 Sabretusks at 20 points per model.

Sabretusks may be taken, independently of a Hunter and/or in an army without a Hunter, in units of 5-10 at 20 points per model.

Tyrants, Bruisers, Ironguts and Maneaters may take Full Plate Armor at 12 additional points per model.

All ranked Ogre units may Charge or March through Gnoblar Fighter units. The Gnoblar unit must take a Panic Check. If failed, the unit is destroyed and the opposing player receives Victory Points. If passed, the Gnoblar Fighters will flee 2d6 inches in the direction indicated on an Scatter Dice. If the Scatter Dice represents a hit, the Gnoblars have safely fled onto the shoulders and heads of their Ogre masters.

If a Hunter, with or without his Sabretusks, charges through a unit of Gnoblar Trappers, the Trappers simply move around the Hunter's unit in any direction the Ogre player chooses. The Trappers may also flee directly into the robes of the Hunter. This rule is meant to represent the superior intellect and cunning of Trappers.

What do you guys think? Are some of these over the top? In my mind, I don't think they are. The 3-model-per-rank rule combined with Bull Charge and the Outnumber=Stubborn/Unbreakable rule makes deploying big units of Ogres attractive. Also with the right options, Bulls are AMAZING (four attacks with 3+ armor save -- FTW?)
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just-josh

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #1 on: Feb 08, 2010, 02:00:17 PM »
I, personally, like all of the proposed rules changes you've made here. But, I wonder, how some may see this just as fanciful wish-listing...

JJ
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drear

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #2 on: Feb 08, 2010, 03:37:02 PM »
i dont see any reason why bulls would get a free light armour and ironfist upgrade, surley that makes the ' every unit gets a 6+ belly save' rule pointless, as anybody using these rules would have no reason not to upgrade to light armour . i think having simply the belly save with an option to buy heavier troops is where a hosuerule should end, our rank and file doesnt need to be that tough ontop of their stats and wounds already. 5+ save from shooting and a 4+ in combat makes a 35 point ogre seem cheap , aswell as essentially giving them an extra hand weapon free aswell.


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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #3 on: Feb 08, 2010, 04:17:34 PM »
your gnoblar rules are great

in Hitch a ride for fighters, by "ranked" ogre unit do you mean one that has 6 or more ogres per your previous rule

i do think we should still pay for ironfists, but with the changes you have made

a lot of people don't know this but GW started a long time ago, but they were know then as Gestapo Wardens.  after a while they eased their way into the gaming community due to the changing times.... but some upper executives still abide by the old ways and occasionally when some player gets really out of line with the house rules, GW shows up and they get black bagged and taken away.  this is all just rumor and speculation of course... but i would be careful what you say about the terrain rules

reynorpadilla

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #4 on: Feb 08, 2010, 05:33:31 PM »
Well the rule changes would be wishlisting if they were in the rumours section. :P These are just house rules :)

Grey templar, I'm glad you like the Hitch a Ride rule. It's my favorite of these House Rules. It's flavorful and offers all kinds of terrific tactical uses (though they require a bit of finesse - not simply a "march across the table for the win). I think a "ranked unit" of Ogres, (i.e. with a second rank) would transport a unit of 20 Gnoblar Fighters (3 per Ogre with an extra two if you have a champion). Hunters, being heroes and having a tighter bond with their Trappers, can transport up to 9.

The downside to Hitch a Ride? If your unit is destroyed by shooting, you lose 210 pts for the Bulls and 40 pts for the Gnoblars.

Drear, I admit, LA+Gutplate+Ironfist+XhW (3+) is pretty crazy. However Warriors of Chaos (of which no one in our friendly, balance-conscious group considers overpowered at 15 points apiece) get a 3+ save if you add a shield, and frankly two of them could go toe to toe with Bulls, Ironguts, Leadbelchers and possibly Maneaters. WS 5 BS 3 St 4 T4 W1 I5 A2 Ld8 -- FTW?

From that perspective the average Bull, at 35 points a model, doesn't seem that expensive. Thee two models have the same armor save while the Chaos Warrior has better stats all across. The only edge an Ogre has is more attacks (however its four attacks vs. two for Warriors=a wash). Ogres cause Fear -- but it wouldn't effect the average Chaos Warrior very often (especially if in range of their General). Bull Charge and movement also give Ogres an edge. But against T4 Warrriors with a 3+ save, that's still not much.

But Chaos Warriors are at the extreme end of core troops, you say? True. What about Empire Swordsmen? We all know humans are the basic statline in Warhammer. Swordsmen are a little bit ahead of the game (1 pt higher for WS). But for 6 points per model you get WS4, BS3, ST3, T3, I3, A1 Ld 7. Very close to a Bull (aside from Toughness and Strength). So you can get almost SIX! swordsmen for the price of ONE Bull. That's five to six WS 4 attacks with a 4+ save. Six swordsmen against ONE Bull is also pretty even -- even with my house rules. 

Think about Orc boyz. 6 points apiece. Nearly identical statline as a Bull (aside from wounds). Seven points with a shield (4+). Five boyz vs. a Bull is even with my house rules.

Consider that each of these opposing units can also get rank bonuses much cheaper than Ogres (an Orc rank for the cost of one Bull). Swordsmen and Orcs are static combat rez machines. Twenty swordsmen at 180 points vs. six Bulls at 210 have static combat rez of +3 for ranks and +1 for outnumber (and the Bull are no longer Stubborn or Unbreakable). Even with one rank bonus, Ogres are at a disadvantage unless they get 2-3 wounds from Bull Charge.

In the end, even with a Gutplate and Ironfist (from Leadbelchers do not benefit) Ogres are simply lower tiered, point for point, than the average units in the game (Humans and Orcs). Let's not even go into shooting units (esp. all Elves, Dwarf rifles, Empire Handgunners) Most shooting will wittle down the average Ogre unit before it gets the charge, especially armor-piercing or St 4 weapons.

In fact now that I'm writing this, I think I've realized a powerful rule to balance out our lack of combat rez. Change Bull Charge to "An Ogre unit with a second full rank negates its opponents ranks when calculating combat resolution." This would completely replace Bull Charge. The only reason I don't like this rule is it destroys the flanking, bait-and-flee nature of our gameplay. However, it is much truer to the fluff, as Ogres are not noted for their tactical skills. Personally I don't like like the rule (I think it would be commonly decried as cheese), but you have to admit it would solve some problems.

Anyways, just my ideas and more justification for these House Rules. Sorry they are so wordy.
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drear

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #5 on: Feb 08, 2010, 06:09:09 PM »
im always of the opinion though that an ogre cannot be compared to the average rank and file troop in respect of points, in a unit of 3 bulls with a champion thats 9 wounds, that can be randomised throughout the unit, even with just a free gut plate , and the option to purchase la and a ironfist, thats damn good survivability for the points.

but also an ogre unit does not function as other army core troops do, we cannot hope to win against a unit of ranked swordsmen if we charge the front , we're about multiple unit charges and flank attacks, where we're either going to kill the unit or die trying, unlike a unit of chaos warriors 3 deep in ranks, who would be designed to get into the front of a unit, and hope to gain from a static combat resolution after causing wounds.

its just my opinion of ogres comapred to other armies, but giving a 3 wound, multi attack , fear causing unit a 4+ armour save for the price of 3 normal rank and file troops seems really unbalanced.
the reason other units in other armies cost less, is because they are designed to have more units within their ranks, ogres dont seem to be designed to be running about in units of 6 or more with a huge armour save and tons of attacks, it would make almost every unit we make whether it be a 3 man unit of bulls or a unit of ironguts/man eaters the ability to be deathstars in of themselves.

if i had 4 units of bulls, 3 in each all with extra attacks and a 4+ save, aswell as 2 units of ironguts with a 3+ save and great weapons, id feel stupidly overpowered

reynorpadilla

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #6 on: Feb 08, 2010, 06:21:22 PM »
Drear, the average Bull costs 5-6 times as much as the average model in the game...

Nonetheless, your points are ALL valid. I totally appreciate your opinion, especially regarding randomization between the unit and its Champion. I started this thread to see if my ideas were overboard...

I just noticed that I may be coming across argumentative. I apologize. Thank you again for your input! :)

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drear

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #7 on: Feb 08, 2010, 06:38:33 PM »
you arnt coming across like that at all (: hope im not either!
i thoiught youd like some honest feedback (:

reynorpadilla

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #8 on: Feb 08, 2010, 07:38:32 PM »
Nope! You're totally not :)

I guess the best thing would be to playtest these house rules.

Maybe starting with:

Gutplate +1 Armor Save
Standard LA on Bulls
3 Ogres = Rank
Ironfist is both a shield and CC weapon
All CC weapons are armor piercing
Bull Charge with no minimum distance
Leadbelchers don't need to spend a turn reloading.

We're still at a disadvantage in Magic and Shooting!

Hitch a Ride is neat, but not one to start with. Outnumber=Stubborn may not be necessary.

All of these rules are still not as bad as universal Hatred LOL
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drear

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #9 on: Feb 08, 2010, 07:59:52 PM »
they seem like a good set to play with, you might find having all ogre weapons armour piercing gets abit strong, as we're causing alot of negative armour values with basic ogre strenght anways.

id love to see an all ledbelcher army using these rules however, it might be intersting

Savage Oaf

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #10 on: Feb 08, 2010, 08:37:30 PM »
I like the idea of Gut Plates giving a +1 armour save, that would really help Bulls.

reynorpadilla

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #11 on: Feb 09, 2010, 01:12:48 AM »
they seem like a good set to play with, you might find having all ogre weapons armour piercing gets abit strong, as we're causing alot of negative armour values with basic ogre strenght anways.

True. Perhaps we'll nix that one as well.
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Randroid

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #12 on: Feb 12, 2010, 04:31:19 PM »
Ogre Clubs are handweapons in all respects.

This is confusing - they already are HW, they just give the -1 AP as well.

Quote
All melee weapons, when wielded by Ogres, are Armor Piercing.

Over the top. Ogres already have high strength AP, this would give things like Maneaters with GW a -5 to your opponent's armor save. CLS would still be a -4.

Quote
Gutplates confer +1 to armor save and come standard on Tyrants, Bruisers, Hunters, Bulls, Ironguts, Leadbelchers and Maneaters. Butchers and Slaughtermasters may not use Gutplates. In addition, non-Ogre models may not use Gutplates.

No reason to confuse it with needless restrictions - just make it so all Ogre models get a 6+ save for their thick hide and/or gut plate.

Quote
Bulls receive Light Armor and Ironfists at no cost. Heavy Armor is a 4-point upgrade per model.

Over the top. They should not have access to HA either. Armor is not so common place to the Ogre Kingdoms, and why would a crappy Bull be as heavily armored as an Irongut. If you gave Bulls HA, IF, they could have a 2+ AS in CC. That is as good as mounted knights. Think about it...

Quote
Ironfists are both additional hand weapons (conferring +1 attack) and shield (conferring +1 to armor save in both shooting and close combat) for a total of 4+ in combat (ex. Light Armor + Ogre Club + Shield) and 5+ in shooting. They come standard with Bulls. They are a 5-point-per-model option for Tyrants, Bruisers, Hunters and Maneaters.

Over the top. If you are going to add to their usability don't decrease their point cost, and especially don't make them free. Always giving a +1 AS bonus seems reasonable and is a simpler way to write all of this (you're making it too complicated again).

Quote
Bull Charge requires no minimum range.

Sounds good. No problems with that, Minos have it now and it hasn't broken the game yet.

Quote
Ogres receive Rank Bonuses at 3 models wide.

Not sure I like this but everyone else seems to love the idea. Sure, why not.

Quote
When Ogres Outnumber their opponent in combat, they are Unbreakable (should this be Stubborn instead?).

How about neither instead? Over the top. It is bad enough to be one of the few armies that has to deal with being outnumbered by fear causing units and auto-breaking - you want to go and make it even more powerful by making them Stubborn, or worse yet Unbreakable!? If you feel you must give them some bonus for Outnumber (aside from the Outnumber bonus) I would suggest an additional +1 CR.

Quote
Leadbelchers do not have to spend a turn reloading their Cannons. They may Move and Shoot.

Could be too good, hard to say. The second part isn't needed as they may already Move and Shoot.

Quote
Leadbelchers may take Heavy Armor at 4 points per model.

I don't think this is needed as you are already getting a 5+ save from the LA and gut plate.

Quote
Hunters may Move and Shoot. They may take Light Armor for 3 points per model or Heavy Armor for 4 points per model.

Move and shoot could be okay. No need to give them the LA option unless you like paying for things they get included in their base cost.

All of the "Hitch a Ride" stuff is great but I don't see how it fits into a simple FAQ/house rules set to make the Ogres a little more competitive. It's too much ...

Quote
Hunters may opt to take 1-4 Sabretusks at 20 points per model.

This could be too good, hard to say without some playtesting.

Quote
Sabretusks may be taken, independently of a Hunter and/or in an army without a Hunter, in units of 5-10 at 20 points per model.

Again, like the Gnoblar rule, I think this is something too complex to include in a simple FAQ/house rules list. You're rewriting the book - making a fandex at this point.

Quote
Tyrants, Bruisers, Ironguts and Maneaters may take Full Plate Armor at 12 additional points per model.

Over the top. Even the most heavily armored Ogre wouldn't be able to find a set of full plate armor that fit, let alone at all. With the right equipment loadout you are able to get a 1+ with your gut plate and IF rules - isn't that enough?

Quote
All ranked Ogre units may Charge or March through Gnoblar Fighter units. The Gnoblar unit must take a Panic Check. If failed, the unit is destroyed and the opposing player receives Victory Points. If passed, the Gnoblar Fighters will flee 2d6 inches in the direction indicated on an Scatter Dice. If the Scatter Dice represents a hit, the Gnoblars have safely fled onto the shoulders and heads of their Ogre masters.

Sure ... if you like. I still think you need to keep is simple (KISS).
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reynorpadilla

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #13 on: Feb 12, 2010, 04:45:09 PM »
Thank you, Randroid! This is the kind of input I was hoping for!

I'm still learning Warhammer Fantasy. I didn't realize that these rules would give Bulls a 1+ armor save. For some reason I thought it would be 4+, which to me seems reasonable, since it seems like there are a lot of high strength/AP items in the game.

On a related note, I didn't realize that making Ogre weapons AP would subtract five from an opponent's armor save.

I have to agree with you on ranks. If the Bull Charge becomes just like the Minotaurs' rule, Ogres won't have a bonus to their strength when charging ranked up. It still wouldn't make sense to run them in big packs.

Anyways, thanks for your input. I'm happy to see everyone get excited about the rumours for a new army book!
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reynorpadilla

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #14 on: Feb 12, 2010, 06:42:28 PM »
Randroid -- here is some KISS

Ogres have a 6+ scaly skin save due to their ever-present gutplates.

Ironfists are either a shield or an additional hand weapon. In the shooting phase, Ironfists confer a +1 to the model's armor save -- just like a regular shield. At the beginning of each combat, the Ogre player may choose whether to use the Ironfist as an additional hand weapon or a shield. If used as a hand weapon, the model loses the benefit of a shield.

Ogres may Bull Charge from any distance.

Ogres receive a +2 rank bonus per additional rank of three models. (Due to the fact that each rank of ogres outnumbers the typical rank of 5-6 models for human-sized models).

Leadbelchers no longer spend one turn reloading their Cannons.
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Randroid

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #15 on: Feb 13, 2010, 03:52:52 AM »
Sounds pretty good. Give it a go!
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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #16 on: Jul 06, 2010, 10:14:50 PM »
I would like to comment on the leadblachers. In my opinion i think its cool and unique ( from what i know. ) with thier reloading. If you want them to be better i suggest making them shoot better and still reload. I have too little experince to say anything surely but my suggestion is that each leadbelcher fires artillery dice + 2 or maby has à bit longer rng or maby both. This is just to show My point. Not trying to make it a house rule.

Like 3 ogres to make rank wich is à common houserule.
i also like the  ironfists works as both HW and sheild. But think you still nedd to pay for it.
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just-josh

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #17 on: Jul 07, 2010, 06:54:37 AM »
Threadomancy my friend....

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Re: My house rules - over the top?
« Reply #18 on: Jul 07, 2010, 07:11:53 PM »
???? Are you negative or positive on My suggestion????
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