eggs in one basket pitfalls

[wildHunter]

Well I've tried to get opinions on unit size in another thread and one of the big mantras against large units is the proverbial 'all of your eggs in one basket' response.  But for newer players like myself, I'd appreciate it if people would share actual examples of battles where this has proven to be a bad tactic.

[taladryel]

My second game with Ogres (or was it my third?). Centerpiece of the army is a unit of 7 Bulls, Tyrant and Skullmantle/Siegebreaker Butcher (deployed 3x3, total about 800 points).

Vs. Dwarfs, before their new book. Dwarf player has about...3-4 war machines and the rest is the usual Clansmen/Stubborn Hammerers/Crossbows/Rangers mix.

My big unit runs forward like a herd of...well, a herd. Turn 2 his shooting knocks enough models off to force a Panic check.

I fail.

I run backwards 12".

I rally on Turn 3, run back up on Turn 4. Turn 5 he causes another Panic check.

I fail.

I run backwards 12".

800 points of troops never make it into the opposing half of the battlefield. [Actually more like 1100, since whilst running backwards the Tyrant's unit caused some Panic checks on other Ogre units around it.]

Another example - Game 1 of some RTT way, way back. My Orc army is centered on 24 Black Orcs and a BO Warlord - figure one unit is worth 500-550 points. Playing Lizards. Turn 1, Chameleons march block me and I'm still only halfway out of my deployment zone. Turn 2, his Stegadon marches up to within 6" of my Black Orcs. I take Terror test. I fail. I run 12" off the board. [And the annoyance factor spurred me to wipe the Lizards out in the next 4 turns.]

A final example - not mine. RTT, long ago. Nurgle Minotaur army facing TKs. Minos are led by 7 Minotaurs + Doombull (600+ points). TKs double-fire Skulls of the Foe at the unit on Turn 1. Panic test failed. About 30% of the Mino army (and the only unit with a standard, plus the only damage-dealing character...) runs off before Turn 1.

These are many other examples, but basically a big unit of expensive models a) hits hard, and b) hits its _owner_ hard when it's lost due to a tactical error, freak chance, etc. The epitomy of this is a Dragon or a Greater Daemon army. If the Dragon/Greater Daemon dies (say, to a lucky cannon shot or three), you've just lost a third of your points and possibly much of your hitting power. On the other hand, if you can keep the thing alive, it will typically do major damage.

[choyheeyeow]

I started off playing 1000 points and put my bruiser in a big unit of 7 ogres and thus I march forward in a 4 by 2 formation. In the end, I could not managed to do anything as my opponent easily outflanked me with 2 units.

Also, for big units, usually you will have less units, thus you will be easily outdeployed and the big units will end up doing nothing significant in the game.

I really prefer the MSU style as you have so many units and thus easily outdeploy the opponent and losing 1 or 2 units will not matter much. However, the down side is that it will be hard to win a frontal charge with a small unit, even with a tyrant in it.

[wildHunter]

Thanks for the examples so far.  It sounds like taladryel's ogre example could have been addressed by the kineater big name.  Even without that, failing two LD 9 panic tests seems like it would be pretty rare for the same unit in one game.

Also, in a 1000 pt. game, I think big units are not a good idea.  I would only take a big unit in 2000+.

One problem with MSU that no one talks about much but which happened to me in my last game was that a unit of 3 ogre bulls is easily wiped out from shooting, causing several panic tests, not just one.

[GREASUS TOEBITER]

it work for me once against the dwarvs realy well. but thats because he only ran one artillary.

[Brutus the Blue]

hopefully in a week or so i'll be able to give you an example of how two 16-man iron baskets units will work. i'm just getting moved in up here in seattle and i get all my stuff on friday. i had made an army list for two maxed out ironguts units complete with tyrant/butchers/gorgers helping out, so i'll pull the list out and use it and let everyone know how well it fared.

i expect it's usefulness to be entirely dependent on whether or not i am unlucky. i think with average rolling they will do a lot of damage, but with bad rolling, i will lose half my army. i guess we'll see.

[taladryel]

I'll give you an even better Eggs In Basket example.

My last Fantasy game. My uber-toned down Lizards vs. Dwarf gunline. Centerpiece of gunline - 25 Hammerers plus Lord plus BSB plus Runesmith (all in one giant 900+ point unit).

During turns 1-5 I clear out most of its supporting units. Now it's just a big Stubborn block of Dwarfs surrounded by Krox, Maneaters, Saurus Cav, and even a couple of surviving Temple Guard (and the Big Frog, of course).

Charge from all directions. Win combat by 1 (negating ranks in the process). Outnumber by 1. Autobreak. Boom.

I mean if you want a list of Big Unit Pitfalls - losing it can tear the heart out of your army, and unless you know exactly what you're doing with support units it will be ganged up on and eventually ground down or lost entirely.

[skline]

As expressed before, an "uber" unit is a big target.  And it typically becomes the focus of the battle.  Big units are easily negated.  So unless you fly or have extra movement spells available to you, give up the uber-unit.  And 900 pt units in a 2K game is just silly.

[Genghis Khan]

Well, here's my example, 1 tyrant with fistful of laurels item (re-roll panic test)  butcher, skullmantle, 5-6 ironguts with a champion because most opponents want to get points by knocking off the ironguts so I still have 1 that can reply. Standard with ragbanner (3d6 drop highest for panic tests) plus you can r-roll with the tyrant. That combo is hard to break. I stood ground many times for many rounds because of that combo.

[ikim]

@Genghis: fistfull of laurels makes re-roll one break test.
It's the kineater bigname that makes re-roll panic tests, and hjade lion that makes re-roll all psy tests...

Just a note.
cheers

[taladryel]

No break test reroll in the world is going to help if you're hit by a KoR lance in front and Squires in the flank (4.4 wounds from the knights, 1.0 from the Squires, 1.3 from the horses, flank, standard, 2 ranks, Outnumber - that's CR of 11-12 before you get to hit back). Nor does it help if you're bracketed by 2 cannons and an Organ gun for a couple of turns (or 30 Skinks and 3 Sallies).

Look, I myself have used large, expensive units, quite successfully. And you _can_ make an army where you have multiple threats, diluting enemy responses and overwhelming a section of his army (which is all you need, really). But, large units necessarily bring the bar a bit higher since a) it's easier to misplay and lose the unit and b) losing _that_ unit can mean the end.

[Genghis Khan]

Ikim Doh !!!!!!!!!!!  that's what happens when you go on forums at 3 am and falling asleep typing late

BLASPHAMY !!!!!!!!!

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